Sounds very much like what the author Ian M Banks envisioned as "The Culture" in his Culture sci-fi series. Have you read any of his work?
The Culture works pretty much as you describe... and yes occasionally
the AIs do get corrupted or at least take actions that are somewhat unexpected.

Channel I subscribe to on youtube put this out today, thought you'd enjoy it: https://youtu.be/0MOZubzNO6c?si=tY0u7i1LxBcQZ06E

... A book misplaced is a book lost

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Found that video I was thinking about, wrong channel but deals a lot in what we are talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7SVsqg4Jzk&t=30s

I watched it a couple of days ago . That is quite an interesting video which synthesizes a lot of the sporadic info I have come across regarding China's realestate collapse and their demographic collapse.

I did not realize how heavily Chinese families were investing in realestate.
I though it was just the local governments.. the whole thing (as described
by the video you linked) sounds like a giant ponzi scheme, one that has collapsed quite spectacularly.

That gotta hurt & its hardly surprising that Chinese families are not willing to spend more than they have to.. which is going to make increasing GDP & economic recovery that much harder for China.

I really wonder how they will pull themselves out of this mess.

... Veni, Vidi, ROFL -- I came, I saw, I -laughed-!

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
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Channel I subscribe to on youtube put this out today, thought you'd
enjoy it: https://youtu.be/0MOZubzNO6c?si=tY0u7i1LxBcQZ06E

That was an interesting watch. I'd never really thought too hard about what living in the culture would be like. After watching this I have to admit I would find it quite unsettling to live in a society where the machine minds are so much more intelligent that us that they can manipulate you and all of society without you even being aware of it....

Except you wouldn't be aware of it so you wouldn't worry... eugh!

... Tomato soup. Paris

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On 2024-07-19, Kirk Spragg <Kirk.Spragg@f420.n105.z1.fidonet> wrote:

Found that video I was thinking about, wrong channel but deals a lot in what we are talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7SVsqg4Jzk&t=30s

I watched it a couple of days ago . That is quite an interesting video which synthesizes a lot of the sporadic info I have come across regarding China's realestate collapse and their demographic collapse.

I did not realize how heavily Chinese families were investing in realestate. I though it was just the local governments.. the whole thing (as described
by the video you linked) sounds like a giant ponzi scheme, one that has collapsed quite spectacularly.

That gotta hurt & its hardly surprising that Chinese families are not willing to spend more than they have to.. which is going to make increasing GDP & economic recovery that much harder for China.

I really wonder how they will pull themselves out of this mess.

... Veni, Vidi, ROFL -- I came, I saw, I -laughed-!

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (1:105/420)

China since Deng Xiaping it's more like an hybrid regime than anything else. --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)

I watched it a couple of days ago . That is quite an interesting video which synthesizes a lot of the sporadic info I have come across
regarding China's realestate collapse and their demographic collapse.
I did not realize how heavily Chinese families were investing in realestate. I though it was just the local governments.. the whole thing (as described by the video you linked) sounds like a giant ponzi scheme, one that has collapsed quite spectacularly.

That gotta hurt & its hardly surprising that Chinese families are not willing to spend more than they have to.. which is going to make
I really wonder how they will pull themselves out of this mess.

Especially when there is an almost religious aversion to consumerism. It's like they get stuck in a death spiral.

... Press any key to continue or any other key to quit...

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On 5/18/2024 2:28 PM, Kirk Spragg wrote:

Hey Victoria though we'd best move that conversation about communism
from FSX to here.

I am a Marxist-Leninist... aka communist/bolshevik/(derogaatory by

ultra

leftists and liberals) tankie
I am a super strong avocate for 20th century Socialism
which is worker's state, centrally planned economy, means of

production ma>seized

by workers, and no markets

Though I'm definitely on the left, I'd have to say that history & the
soviet union's failure to keep up with the west illustrate that a
centrally planned economy just doesn't work well.

under capitalism there is severe exploitation
under socialism exploitation is non existant
exploitation is where someone who dose not contribute to society

live off ma> the

labor of others. aka the capitalist. they live off the labor because

they ma> own

the factories etc. aka the means of production

Again history shows that just isn't the case, at uni I met a number of Russian and east european academics all of whom had horror stories of how just how exploitative Russia's socalist state was to its people.

Similarly I know several Chinese Ex-Pats who say similar things about
the CCP & how things are run in China.

How do you envisage a new communist partly/state avoiding this?

... White dwarf seeks red giant for binary relationship.

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* Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbS>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (1:105/420)

1) All big businesses started small. Microsoft started in someone's basement. 2) 50% of the American economy is small businesses.
3) If the state is ever going to wither away, and it's going to be a Utopia as Karl Marx said, then why don't the Communists just say no one owns anything today unless they're carrying it?
4) Why not just raise the minimum wage to 50% per capita GDP after taxes?
5) And have free education, and 1/2 minimum wage to non-earners. i.e. more Socialism, not Communism.
6) Why does the government have to own all the means of production? Why not just some of the means of food production. Or, what if businesses merely couldn't ever pay dividends, what would the difference even be? At the moment I'm not sure how you can restrict spending on high salaries though, ultimately, everyone should get equal pay (or consumption) for an hour worked at anything is obvious. We're all equal in cost and expense and Spirit. We differ temporarily in assets until everyone has everything. Pay (in Capitalism) is a return on capital, for instance your skills and education, more than your labor.
7) Saving is what Capitalism does better than Communism. Capitalists don't consume everything they produce. China has been saving, and so Communism has apparently worked out a bit there.

---
* Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Again history shows that just isn't the case, at uni I met a number of Russian and east european academics all of whom had horror stories of how just how exploitative Russia's socalist state was to its people.

Similarly I know several Chinese Ex-Pats who say similar things about
the CCP & how things are run in China.

How do you envisage a new communist partly/state avoiding this?

7) Saving is what Capitalism does better than Communism. Capitalists don't consume everything they produce. China has been saving, and so Communism has apparently worked out a bit there.

I think that exploiting their people is how China does it.

$$
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On 2024-06-10, Kirk Spragg <Kirk.Spragg@f420.n105.z1.fidonet> wrote:

Definitely one of my favourite series of books, well most of it at least, there are 3-5 of them I didn't feel fit the series or I couldn't get into. Great recommendation though

I've read most of them, some are quite different thats for sure. Which ones did you not like or thought didn't fit the series?

did they get? Thinking about it, India got the first mover advantage in the realm of outsourced services and China for manufacturing and commodities, I have to think that the former is going to scale better over time than the latter. We'll see how things shake out regardless, the more I read the more I get the impression that China's economy is all built on a house of cards.

It does seem like China's economy is ready to collapse in some way, as per my response to Dr What, it looks like China's regional governments' over reliance on borrowing to fund real estate projects which they try to sell for a profit has failed badly... I wonder how they'll try to fix that mess.

... Define the universe and give three examples.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
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I'm centrist, maybe left-leaned. Social-democrat/eurocommunism, but with quirks.

On healthcare I'm socialistic, truly hardcore.
In my European country it's a true gem.

On telecomms, pretty classical liberal. Before
liberalisation, the state telecomm (monopoly, think
about something like AT&T but for an European country)
was expensive as hell, and long distance calls were a theft.
You paid something close to $20 back in the
day for half an hour (or an hour).
Also, prices were per minute, and once the second
hit the clock, you paid 30:00 minutes the same you
would pay for 30:59.
--- SBBSecho 3.24-Linux
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On 2024-06-03, michael goodwind <michael.goodwind@f310.n229.z1.fidonet> wrote:

under capitalism there is severe exploitation
under socialism exploitation is non existant

Again history shows that just isn't the case, at uni I met a number of Russian and east european academics all of whom had horror stories of how

How do you envisage a new communist partly/state avoiding this?

Honestly the only way I envison sustainable capitalism or communism is if humans are taken out of the key positions of power. A system of checks and balances to prevent humans in power from corrupting and subverting the systems for the benefit of few to the detriment of many would be the ideal but until we figure out how to roll that out at scale, advanced AI being in place to prevent corruption seems to be the only way these 2 systems of government would sustainably work over long periods of time as intended. Until the AI itself becomes corrupted I suppose

Outside of this though Kirk's point is valid, we don't need to hypothothize on which system is superior(in the face of the above mentioned reality of humans running the show), we have enough examples over the last couple hundred years to show that capitalist or social capitalist models fare far far better in regards to overall quality of life, economic success, innovation and advancement and nearly every other metric that matters regarding human progress

Kirk - I would be curious to hear your thoughts about India vs China. And what you attribute most towards China being able to outpace India in lifting more people out of poverty faster, etc etc.

... Live every day as though it were your last. One day, you'll be right

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/04/30 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Clutch BBS * telnet://clutchbbs.com (1:229/310)

Once we hit robotics/automization, communism and capitalism have no sense at all.
There are no economic policies, but methodology.
The system feedbacks itself; it's like cybernetics.
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