Hello Everybody,

A novice sysop asked an experienced sysop why Fidonet has no leader -

-=begin rant=-

After being away from Fidonet a long time, why don't we have a IC?

1. an IC died.
2. the ZCC selected a new IC.
3. new IC tried playing numbers games.
4. the ZCC rejected new IC's numbers games.
5. the ZCC removed the new IC from the position.
6. the ZCC has not selected a new IC.
7. the ZCC has been able to handle the main job (nodelist generation)
of the IC.

)\/(ark

-=end rant=-

What the experienced sysop is trying to explain to the newbie
is that once upon a time there was an attempted coup. And all
the sysops in Fidonet decided to pretend the newly self-declared
emperor was wearing clothes. Even though nobody could see what
clothes he was wearing.

Of course, all power resides with individual sysops. No other
power can exist outside of each sysop's domain/fiefdom, as each
individual sysop is lord and master of his/her own system.

Therefore, any claim to being Supreme Dictator of Fidonet is
an empty claim. Recognized by no one.

Which means that every single one of us, including sysops, is
a troll. And to think, by their own admission, they recognize
me as being the best of them all.

--Lee (Lord Troll of Fidonet)

--
Often Licked, Never Beaten

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Lee Lofaso wrote to All <=-

A novice sysop asked an experienced sysop why Fidonet has no
leader -

-=begin rant=-

Why is this trolltard being allowed to quote material that was
originally posted in a Sysop-Only echo area?

Who's letting him have access to that?

Bjorn, is that you? Please fix.



... So easy, a child could do it. Child sold separately.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:135/115)

On 17/09/2019 09:56, Dan Clough -> Lee Lofaso wrote:

Why is this trolltard being allowed to quote material that was
originally posted in a Sysop-Only echo area?

Who's letting him have access to that?

Bjorn, is that you? Please fix.

Umm - who is the moderator of "that echo"?

Have you read that moderator's rules for the echo?

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Bucca, Queensland, Australia (3:640/305)

Hello Dan,

A novice sysop asked an experienced sysop why Fidonet has no
leader -

-=begin rant=-

Why is this trolltard being allowed to quote material that was
originally posted in a Sysop-Only echo area?

Free speech, my man!
Unlimited free speech!
It's the American way!
Don't you love it?
I know I do!

Who's letting him have access to that?

You'll never know. :)

Bjorn, is that you? Please fix.

Bj”rn's system is working just fine.
Do you have a problem with that?

--Lee

--
Stop Workin', Start Jerkin'

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 2019 Sep 16 19:24:28, you wrote to All:

)\/(ark

-=end rant=-

there was no rant in that post at all...

What the experienced sysop is trying to explain to the newbie
is that once upon a time there was an attempted coup.

wrong... nothing was said about any supposed coup, successful, attempted, or failed...

)\/(ark

Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set
them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
... Thy Corona come, thy Chili be Con, on Cuervo it is El Jefe.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

-=begin rant=-

Why is this trolltard being allowed to quote material that was
originally posted in a Sysop-Only echo area?

Who's letting him have access to that?

Bjorn, is that you? Please fix.

Yes, Bjorn gives everyone read access to the sysop areas on his news server. In
some cases the sysop echo's are leaked by accident and in a few cases it's purposeful.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Alan Ianson wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Why is this trolltard being allowed to quote material that was
originally posted in a Sysop-Only echo area?

Who's letting him have access to that?

Bjorn, is that you? Please fix.

Yes, Bjorn gives everyone read access to the sysop areas on his
news server. In some cases the sysop echo's are leaked by
accident and in a few cases it's purposeful.

Yep, figures. Bjorn the troll-supporter. :-(



... Pros are those who do their jobs well, even when they don't feel like it. === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:135/115)

Hello Dan!

17 Sep 19 20:57, you wrote to Alan Ianson:

Yes, Bjorn gives everyone read access to the sysop areas on his
news server. In some cases the sysop echo's are leaked by
accident and in a few cases it's purposeful.

Yep, figures. Bjorn the troll-supporter. :-(

Trolls are the native inhabitants of Sweden and Norway. All others got
there by migration.

Why should he deny access to the real natives of his country.

Kees

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20180707
* Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)

Kees van Eeten wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Trolls are the native inhabitants of Sweden and Norway. All others got
there by migration.

On dashboards?


... Repetition is a form of change
--- MultiMail/XT v0.52
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

Hello mark,

LL> )\/(ark

LL> -=end rant=-

there was no rant in that post at all...

Whether it was a meaningful rant or an unmeaningful rant
may be open to question. But it was a rant.

What the experienced sysop is trying to explain to the newbie
is that once upon a time there was an attempted coup.

wrong... nothing was said about any supposed coup, successful, attempted, or
failed...

Since a sysop is lord and master of his own system, unless
he has multiple personality disorder, it would be very difficult
if not impossible to have a successful coup against his own
self.

--Lee

--
We Make Your Wet Dreams Come True

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)

Yes, Bjorn gives everyone read access to the sysop areas on his
news server. In some cases the sysop echo's are leaked by
accident and in a few cases it's purposeful.

Yep, figures. Bjorn the troll-supporter. :-(

Trolls are the native inhabitants of Sweden and Norway. All others got
there by migration.

Trolls have no boundaries.

Why should he deny access to the real natives of his country.

Dan is talking about posts in another area (FN_SYSOP I think) being quoted here.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

On 19/09/2019 04:52, Alan Ianson -> Kees van Eeten wrote:

Trolls have no boundaries.

Why should he deny access to the real natives of his country.

Dan is talking about posts in another area (FN_SYSOP I think) being
quoted here.

Can you quote the rule of either echo where it says that this must not happen?

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Bucca, Queensland, Australia (3:640/305)

Dan is talking about posts in another area (FN_SYSOP I think) being
quoted here.

Can you quote the rule of either echo where it says that this must not happen?

Yes.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

On 2019 Sep 18 20:04:38, you wrote to me:

there was no rant in that post at all...

Whether it was a meaningful rant or an unmeaningful rant
may be open to question. But it was a rant.

since *I* wrote it and i know my state of mind when i did, i know that it was not a rant... do not project your own emotions or feelings on me or my writings, sir...

)\/(ark

Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set
them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
... Tobacco free...the only way to be!! ;*)
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

Hello Alan,

Dan is talking about posts in another area (FN_SYSOP I think) being
quoted here.

Can you quote the rule of either echo where it says that this must not
happen?

Yes.

The self-elected sysop of that echo has been AWOL since forever,
without ever having posted any rules at all.

So please. Quote the rule(s) he posted that you claim
a non-participant of that echo is in violation of.

--Lee

--
I Take A Sheet In The Pool

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello David,

Trolls have no boundaries.

Why should he deny access to the real natives of his country.

Dan is talking about posts in another area (FN_SYSOP I think) being
quoted here.

Can you quote the rule of either echo where it says that this must not happen?

Rules? What rules? Whose rules? My rules? Your rules?
Somebody else's rules? Our own rules? Oh. That must be them.
Never mind.

--Lee

--
We're Great In Bed

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 19/09/2019 13:00, Alan Ianson -> David Drummond wrote:

Dan is talking about posts in another area (FN_SYSOP I think) being
quoted here.

Can you quote the rule of either echo where it says that this must not
happen?

Yes.

Then please do - until then I have no issues with non-sysops cross posting.

The settings are the same at my node as those at the node in Sweden.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

Dan is talking about posts in another area (FN_SYSOP I think) being
quoted here.

Can you quote the rule of either echo where it says that this must not
happen?

Yes.

Then please do

We have discussed the rules in some detail not so long ago. I see no reason to reopen that discussion.

- until then I have no issues with non-sysops cross posting.

The settings are the same at my node as those at the node in Sweden.

Nothing has changed. I know this.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

On 20/09/2019 15:48, Alan Ianson -> David Drummond wrote:

Can you quote the rule of either echo where it says that this must not
happen?

Yes.

Then please do

We have discussed the rules in some detail not so long ago. I see no reason to reopen that discussion.

Of course not - you have no evidence to back your claim.

- until then I have no issues with non-sysops cross posting.

The settings are the same at my node as those at the node in Sweden.

Nothing has changed. I know this.

In accordance with the rules presented to me.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

Hello David.

20 Sep 19 16:33, you wrote to Alan Ianson:

Nothing has changed. I know this.

In accordance with the rules presented to me.

I do not understand that so many people are nowadays missing self-reflection. If majority of people wrote to me that I posted nonsense, I would consider that.

Beside that, I have to pay traffic based on kB which most of this was Lofaso's trolling.

This is excatly why we need specific rules for everything, otherwise people will keep trying outsmart one another all the time...


Karel

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.4.7
* Origin: Plast DATA (2:423/39)

On 20/09/2019 15:58, Karel Kral -> David Drummond wrote:

Nothing has changed. I know this.

In accordance with the rules presented to me.

I do not understand that so many people are nowadays missing self-reflection. If majority of people wrote to me that I posted
nonsense, I would consider that.

Beside that, I have to pay traffic based on kB which most of this was Lofaso's trolling.

If you cannot afford to pursue this hobby, then should you be pursuing it?

This is exactly why we need specific rules for everything, otherwise people will keep trying outsmart one another all the time...

Then why do we not have those rules? Could it be that not everyone agrees with your view?

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

I do not understand that so many people are nowadays missing self-reflection. If majority of people wrote to me that I posted nonsense, I would consider that.

Fidonet is not much different than real life. Some are here, some are there.

Beside that, I have to pay traffic based on kB which most of this was Lofaso's
trolling.

I find myself skipping over Lee's posting rather quickly if I look at them at all. His postings don't cost me any more above what I pay already.

This is excatly why we need specific rules for everything, otherwise people will keep trying outsmart one another all the time...

I have never found the rules of any area to be a problem and if I did I would simply go to another area.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hello David.

21 Sep 19 08:44, you wrote to me:

If you cannot afford to pursue this hobby, then should
you be pursuing it?

I can.

Then why do we not have those rules? Could it be that not
everyone agrees with your view?

My point was opposite. Live and let live. Unfortunately, we are people and in general, to prevent misuse, we are creating rules.

I expressed my opinion.

Karel

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.4.7
* Origin: Plast DATA (2:423/39)

On 21/09/2019 06:20, Karel Kral -> David Drummond wrote:

If you cannot afford to pursue this hobby, then should
you be pursuing it?

I can.

Then don't gripe about a few Kb

Then why do we not have those rules? Could it be that not
everyone agrees with your view?

My point was opposite. Live and let live. Unfortunately, we are people
and in general, to prevent misuse, we are creating rules.

I expressed my opinion.

And I've expressed mine.

LL likes to express his too. Is it any less valid than yours or mine?

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 21/09/2019 10:13, Alan Ianson -> Karel Kral wrote:

I find myself skipping over Lee's posting rather quickly if I look at
them at all. His postings don't cost me any more above what I pay already.

This is excatly why we need specific rules for everything, otherwise people
will keep trying outsmart one another all the time...

I have never found the rules of any area to be a problem and if I did I would simply go to another area.

Your system, your choice.

It's a pity others feel a need for everyone to conform to their choice.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

Hello, David Drummond.
On 21/09/19 16:35 you wrote:

I expressed my opinion.

And I've expressed mine. LL likes to express his too. Is it any
less valid than yours or mine?

Everyone have the right to express they own opinion, the issue is the right place, the right time and the right politeness.

Let me make an example:

You are at the theater watching a nice movie,suddenly someone stands up and starts speaking about nuclear physics, and the guardian of the theater says "It's his opinion and he's free to say anything".

After the physics symposium you're trying to Listen to the movie with some difficulties to link to the story and again the same person stands up and starts speaking agains the man near you that's your friend and if you try to argue about it he starts to offended you and your friend, the guardian says always the same story.

The third time the same person stands up you leave the teather. :)

As I wrote in other echoes, freedom without rules is anarchy and anarchy is always bad.

My 2 cents.
--
Ciao! :)
Fabio.
--- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
* Origin: ]\/[imac boss android point (2:335/364.3)

I have never found the rules of any area to be a problem and if I did I
would simply go to another area.

It's a pity others feel a need for everyone to conform to their choice.

I respect the rules the moderators have put in place.

As far as access to sysop areas, I have respect for my fellow operators.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

As I wrote in other echoes, freedom without rules is anarchy and anarchy is always bad.

There is an element of anarchy in fidonet that's not hard to see. There is no law enforcement and if there was, there is no place to put the "bad" guys.

In spite of that Fidonet can still be a good place if Fidonet operators care about it and take the steps needed to make it so.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hello David,

I find myself skipping over Lee's posting rather quickly if I look at
them at all. His postings don't cost me any more above what I pay

already.

This is excatly why we need specific rules for everything, otherwise

people

will keep trying outsmart one another all the time...

I have never found the rules of any area to be a problem and if I did I
would simply go to another area.

Your system, your choice.

A sysop is lord and master of his/her own system.
I have no problem with that, and question no sysop
as to how he/she wants to run his/her system.

Would I want others to tell me how to run my own system?
No. And why should I? Why should anybody else? The clear
authority resides with individual sysops, not any outsider
or outside group.

It's a pity others feel a need for everyone to conform to their choice.

They sound like little girls at a slumber party.

--Lee

--
Often Licked, Never Beaten

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Karel,

If you cannot afford to pursue this hobby, then should
you be pursuing it?

I can.

Trolls have mirrors that reflect sunlight.
Those mirrors can be redirected elsewhere, creating
more messages than any system can handle ...

Then why do we not have those rules? Could it be that not
everyone agrees with your view?

My point was opposite. Live and let live. Unfortunately, we are people and in general, to prevent misuse, we are creating rules.

Rules? Oh, boy! Munch! Munch! Thankyouberrymuch!

I expressed my opinion.

The more the merrier. :)

--Lee

--
Your Hole Is Our Goal

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Fabio,

I expressed my opinion.

And I've expressed mine. LL likes to express his too. Is it any
less valid than yours or mine?

Everyone have the right to express they own opinion, the issue is the

right

place, the right time and the right politeness.

Who gets to define what is the right place, the right time and
the right politeness? Do you have that right? Does anybody else?
I think not. Either we have unlimited free speech, or we have
no free speech at all. So which is it? What exactly do you want,
and what exactly should we all want?

You claim on one hand that "Everyone have the right to express they
own opinion", and on the other hand claim nobody has any right at all.

A very limited free speech is nothing more than a mere privilege
granted by the one who claims to grant that privilege to whomever
he/she so desires? That is no freedom at all, but a form of
censorship that no sysop should support.

Let me make an example:

You are at the theater watching a nice movie,suddenly someone stands up

and

starts speaking about nuclear physics, and the guardian of the theater

says

"It's his opinion and he's free to say anything".

After the physics symposium you're trying to Listen to the movie with some difficulties to link to the story and again the same person stands up and starts speaking agains the man near you that's your friend and if you try to argue about it he starts to offended you and your friend, the guardian says always the same story.

The third time the same person stands up you leave the teather. :)

As I wrote in other echoes, freedom without rules is anarchy and anarchy

is

always bad.

My 2 cents.

"I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend your right
to say it." The poor guy who said that must have lost his head ...

--Lee

--
As Good As It Looks

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Alan,

I have never found the rules of any area to be a problem and if I did I
would simply go to another area.

It's a pity others feel a need for everyone to conform to their choice.

I respect the rules the moderators have put in place.

So do I. Which explains why we are both still here. :)

As far as access to sysop areas, I have respect for my fellow operators.

Same as sysops, trolls are equal opportunity assholes.

So what's your problem?

--Lee

--
Your Hole Is Our Goal

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Alan,

As I wrote in other echoes, freedom without rules is anarchy and anarchy is
always bad.

There is an element of anarchy in fidonet that's not hard to see. There is no law enforcement and if there was, there is no place to put the "bad" guys.

In spite of that Fidonet can still be a good place if Fidonet operators

care

about it and take the steps needed to make it so.

Controlled anarchy is not anarchy. Either everybody gets to play,
or only a selected few get to play. Can't have it both ways.

K.A.O.S. vs K.O.N.T.R.O.L.

Which do you want?

Ziegfried, or Maxwell Smart?

Or maybe you'd prefer to be Agent 99.

Nah. You don't qualify. Not pretty enough. :)

--Lee

--
Every Bottom Needs A Top

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

I respect the rules the moderators have put in place.

So do I. Which explains why we are both still here. :)

As far as access to sysop areas, I have respect for my fellow operators.

Same as sysops, trolls are equal opportunity assholes.

So what's your problem?

The above was a reply to David's comment. I never mentioned any problem.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Or maybe you'd prefer to be Agent 99.

Nah. You don't qualify. Not pretty enough. :)

The girls tell me I am desirable.. but I have nothing on Agent 99. :)

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

On 21/09/2019 18:34, Alan Ianson -> David Drummond wrote:

It's a pity others feel a need for everyone to conform to their choice.

I respect the rules the moderators have put in place.

I have still not seen a rule stating that the postings of that echo may not be cross-posted to this one.

As far as access to sysop areas, I have respect for my fellow operators.

If LL became nodelisted, would his expressed opinions become more acceptable?

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

Re: The Rules
By: David Drummond to Alan Ianson on Sun Sep 22 2019 11:40:28

If LL became nodelisted, would his expressed opinions become more

acceptable?

probably not but his activities in restricted access areas would not be so frowned upon...


)\/(ark
--- SBBSecho 3.09-Linux
* Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)

If LL became nodelisted, would his expressed opinions become more

acceptable?

probably not but his activities in restricted access areas would not be
so frowned upon...

Hear! Hear!

--- D'Bridge 3.99
* Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)

On 24/09/2019 01:17, mark lewis -> David Drummond wrote:

Re: The Rules
By: David Drummond to Alan Ianson on Sun Sep 22 2019 11:40:28

If LL became nodelisted, would his expressed opinions become more

acceptable?

probably not but his activities in restricted access areas would not be
so frowned upon...

People keep saying that FN_Sysop is a "restricted area" but the last set of rules I saw posted do not support that assertion.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 24 Sep 19 07:42:02, David Drummond said the following to Mark Lewis:

probably not but his activities in restricted access areas would not b so frowned upon...

People keep saying that FN_Sysop is a "restricted area" but the last set of rules I saw posted do not support that assertion.

We shouldn't need rules, period. No monthly rules, no reminder of whose
in charge, etc. Who cares... we are a small enough mature network where we should be decent enough to not require the need for nannies and trolls.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

On 23/09/2019 18:52, Nick Andre -> David Drummond wrote:

People keep saying that FN_Sysop is a "restricted area" but the last set of
rules I saw posted do not support that assertion.

We shouldn't need rules, period. No monthly rules, no reminder of whose
in charge, etc. Who cares... we are a small enough mature network where we should be decent enough to not require the need for nannies and trolls.

Obviously the trolls do not agree with you. Is your opinion more valid than theirs?

If you don't like troll posts then don't read them. There is no requirement for
you to read everything.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 24 Sep 19 09:29:29, David Drummond said the following to Nick Andre:

Obviously the trolls do not agree with you. Is your opinion more valid than theirs?

Nah... Not any more valid when I hear about US politics when I'm not
American. Sure, I can skip that nonsense.

Hitting the Next key is a valid response... But when that becomes a frequent occurance, I believe I am not alone when I ask, *why is the troll even here*, when such troll could find much more fufilling enjoyment trolling on the Internet? Go troll the comment section of pro-Trump websites for example?

Fido is such a small silly hobby that a fraction of the world still enjoys... the fact that we have a troll, its really just a sad expression of that person's emotional unbalance. Possibly alcohol, a dead wife, who knows?

Again... we are a small enough network, a community of sorts... its been well proven that you can run a "free speech system" from which a troll can post
and usurp an Echo. But really, whats the end goal supposed to be? Are we
all supposed to be impressed? Lets clap our hands for your free speech, when the rest of the Sysops of this small network are just fed up turned off?

If your response is going to be "Just hit next", then I feel the point is being missed; *We shouldn't have to hit Next because we are a silly hobby network in 2019 that is lucky to have a Next key*... and keep in mind I defended against Bob Seaborn's attempted silly censorship of your messages.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

On 23/09/2019 20:23, Nick Andre -> David Drummond wrote:

Obviously the trolls do not agree with you. Is your opinion more valid than
theirs?

Nah... Not any more valid when I hear about US politics when I'm not American. Sure, I can skip that nonsense.

You live in the Americas yet you are not American? Then again, I acknowledge that I live in Australia yet I am not Australian...

Hitting the Next key is a valid response... But when that becomes a

frequent

occurance, I believe I am not alone when I ask, *why is the troll even here*, when such troll could find much more fulfilling enjoyment trolling

on the

Internet? Go troll the comment section of pro-Trump websites for example?

Could it be that their hobby is trolling in Fidonet? Just because something does not appeal to you doesn't mean that it doesn't appeal to others.

Fido is such a small silly hobby that a fraction of the world still

enjoys...

Including certain trolls?

the fact that we have a troll, its really just a sad expression of that person's emotional unbalance. Possibly alcohol, a dead wife, who knows?

Or just a different mindset to yours?

Again... we are a small enough network, a community of sorts... its been

well

proven that you can run a "free speech system" from which a troll can post and usurp an Echo. But really, whats the end goal supposed to be? Are we all supposed to be impressed? Lets clap our hands for your free speech,

when

the rest of the Sysops of this small network are just fed up turned off?

Bigger fools them. They do not have to read the troll's posts. We all have next
keys, we all have filtering methods.

If your response is going to be "Just hit next", then I feel the point is being missed; *We shouldn't have to hit Next because we are a silly hobby network in 2019 that is lucky to have a Next key*...

Then institute a filter. Why is your enjoyment of your hobby any more important
than the troll's enjoyment of his/hers?

and keep in mind I defended against Bob Seaborn's attempted silly

censorship of your messages.

And yet his censorship was instituted. I am sure that there are sysops out there who still do not get to see my "pearls of wisdom". That is their choice. I used to filter certain parties too - but I have mellowed as I have got older.
I can read stuff now and not get my knickers in a twist. However, those knickers still get a little bunched up when I see some demanding that others conform to their draconian ideals...

As was mentioned in Monty Python's "Life of Brian", "we are all individuals". How boring would it be if we all thought and acted exactly the same?

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

Hello mark,

If LL became nodelisted, would his expressed opinions become more

acceptable?

probably not but his activities in restricted access areas would not be so frowned upon...

There are many sysops in Fidonet who agree with my view of
unlimited free speech. In fact, you might say they are the
silent majority. All of them sitting back, eating their
popcorn, enjoying the show ...

--Lee

--
Laying Pipe Since '88

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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Hello Nick,

probably not but his activities in restricted access areas would

not b

so frowned upon...

People keep saying that FN_Sysop is a "restricted area" but the last

set of

rules I saw posted do not support that assertion.

We shouldn't need rules, period. No monthly rules, no reminder of whose
in charge, etc. Who cares... we are a small enough mature network where we should be decent enough to not require the need for nannies and trolls.

Then why does Nick Andre need a rule about nannies and trolls?

"The Truth? You can't handle The Truth!"
~ Jack Nicholson, in one of his more famous roles

--Lee

--
Our Nuts, Your Mouth

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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Hello David.

24 Sep 19 09:29, you wrote to Nick Andre:

Obviously the trolls do not agree with you. Is your opinion more valid than theirs?

You are trying to say that trolling is normal and OK, but is not.

If you don't like troll posts then don't read them. There is no requirement for you to read everything.

If I live in your world, I would have to buy all books from shelf which is dedicated to detective novels in bookstore - to happily later find out which I have to skip as there is also some other crap included.

Karel

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.4.7
* Origin: Plast DATA (2:423/39)

On 24/09/2019 17:20, Karel Kral -> David Drummond wrote:

Obviously the trolls do not agree with you. Is your opinion more valid
than theirs?

You are trying to say that trolling is normal and OK, but is not.

Normal? Normal is but a bump on the bell curve. Today's normal is tomorrow's abnormal.

If you don't like troll posts then don't read them. There is no
requirement for you to read everything.

If I live in your world, I would have to buy all books from shelf which
is dedicated to detective novels in bookstore - to happily later find
out which I have to skip as there is also some other crap included.

The beauty of Fidonet is that you do not have to buy the crap - it comes free with the other free crap.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 24 Sep 19 13:02:36, David Drummond said the following to Nick Andre:

Nah... Not any more valid when I hear about US politics when I'm not American. Sure, I can skip that nonsense.

You live in the Americas yet you are not American? Then again, I acknowledg that I live in Australia yet I am not Australian...

I'm in Canada... the upstairs neighbour to the obnoxious one below 8-)

Could it be that their hobby is trolling in Fidonet? Just because something does not appeal to you doesn't mean that it doesn't appeal to others.

Maybe my new hobby should be writing a program to randomly slam the Fidonews echo with thousands upon thousands of random insults directed towards the operator of Lee's system?

Each post will have a random name, and quite possibly random kludge lines, addressing, etc. Because clearly it is not necessary to be a nodelisted system to participate here?

And I could gate Fidonews to many Usenet groups while I'm at it...

After all, its just free speech, right? And I'm sure you wouldn't mind hitting the Next key thousands of times to skip all my crap?

I openly challenge anyone to try and stop me or filter me if I did this. I can totally usurp this echo and *nothing* can be done to stop it.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Hello David.

25 Sep 19 07:57, you wrote to me:

Normal? Normal is but a bump on the bell curve. Today's normal is tomorrow's abnormal.

People usualy clearly understand what is good and what is bad. Nearly every tale is ending good.

The beauty of Fidonet is that you do not have to buy the crap - it
comes free with the other free crap.

In my country is not true. We pay for the internet connection.

Karel

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.4.7
* Origin: Plast DATA (2:423/39)

On 25/09/2019 14:45, Nick Andre -> David Drummond wrote:

Could it be that their hobby is trolling in Fidonet? Just because something
does not appeal to you doesn't mean that it doesn't appeal to others.

Maybe my new hobby should be writing a program to randomly slam the

Fidonews

echo with thousands upon thousands of random insults directed towards the operator of Lee's system?

You could do that - just as you could do many other things.

Each post will have a random name, and quite possibly random kludge lines, addressing, etc. Because clearly it is not necessary to be a nodelisted

system

to participate here?

That is true. This echo is read/writeable to all.

And I could gate Fidonews to many Usenet groups while I'm at it...

If you wish. There is nothing anyone can do to stop you.

After all, its just free speech, right? And I'm sure you wouldn't mind

hitting

the Next key thousands of times to skip all my crap?

I'm sure we'd find a way to filter it - or just drop the echo.

I openly challenge anyone to try and stop me or filter me if I did this. I

can

totally usurp this echo and *nothing* can be done to stop it.

Are you suggesting that LL should do these things too?

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 25/09/2019 20:55, Karel Kral -> David Drummond wrote:

Normal? Normal is but a bump on the bell curve. Today's normal is
tomorrow's abnormal.

People usualy clearly understand what is good and what is bad. Nearly every tale is ending good.

The beauty of Fidonet is that you do not have to buy the crap - it
comes free with the other free crap.

In my country is not true. We pay for the internet connection.

As we do in this country - but we have unlimited traffic throughput (within reason). My internet cost doesn't vary with Fidonet verbosity.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 26 Sep 19 08:07:04, David Drummond said the following to Nick Andre:

After all, its just free speech, right? And I'm sure you wouldn't mind

hitting

the Next key thousands of times to skip all my crap?

I'm sure we'd find a way to filter it - or just drop the echo.

Ahhhh but it appears that you mention whenever anyone complains about trolls, to just hit the Next key. "We" shouldn't have to filter anything?

If above, pressing Next a thousand times would be annoying to you, and you would consider filtering or dropping the echo, then logically it must mean
that at some point, mentally there is a "line" between what you consider acceptable or not from an individual. Mellow as I know you are, there is an annoyance factor when pressing Next is no longer effective.

I'm trying to illustrate that Fido is a small enough network where there does not need to be trolls, or nannies enforcing rules. We should be mature enough to co-exist and not have someone running a "free speech" system, because
only to prove that he can, and where the sole output is trolling.

I can "prove" I can usurp the Fidonews echo. Totally and thoroughly trash it and *nobody* will want to ever connect to it again. Do I need to prove it? Many Sysops will likely tell me, "no". Why? Because I'm not a dick... I respect my fellow Sysops enough that I do not need to prove Free Speech.

That is why the troll needs to go. Its not a free speech thing. Its a you're pissing off your fellow Sysops and tarnishing the enjoyment of Fido thing.

Many popular Internet social media or chat sites have clear policies against trolling, some ISP's have them as well. Why should Fido be any different?

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Hello Nick,

Nah... Not any more valid when I hear about US politics when I'm

not

American. Sure, I can skip that nonsense.

You live in the Americas yet you are not American? Then again, I

acknowledg

that I live in Australia yet I am not Australian...

I'm in Canada... the upstairs neighbour to the obnoxious one below 8-)

Yes. Australia is south of the border. As is New Zealand.
Kind of hard dissing two countries at the same time. But you
did find a way.

Could it be that their hobby is trolling in Fidonet? Just because
something does not appeal to you doesn't mean that it doesn't DD>appeal

to others.

Maybe my new hobby should be writing a program to randomly slam the

Fidonews

echo with thousands upon thousands of random insults directed towards the operator of Lee's system?

Which operator might that be? I have several ...

Each post will have a random name, and quite possibly random kludge lines, addressing, etc. Because clearly it is not necessary to be a nodelisted system to participate here?

Cool. I can do the same, posting messages with a random name.
Wouldn't that be fun? I can even do so at random systems ...

And I could gate Fidonews to many Usenet groups while I'm at it...

I'll give you all of Usenet groups to play with. Fidonet is enough
to keep me happy, and not starving.

After all, its just free speech, right? And I'm sure you wouldn't mind hitting the Next key thousands of times to skip all my crap?

My <N>ext key doesn't work. And unfixable. I like it that way.

I openly challenge anyone to try and stop me or filter me if I did this. I can totally usurp this echo and *nothing* can be done to stop it.

Janis Kracht was right. He will be back. Nick Andre.
The new Don Rickles of Fidonet. Replacing the late Roy Witt.

--Lee

--
Sleep With Someone New

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello David,

[..]

After all, its just free speech, right? And I'm sure you wouldn't NA>mind

hitting the Next key thousands of times to skip all my crap?

I'm sure we'd find a way to filter it - or just drop the echo.

I openly challenge anyone to try and stop me or filter me if I NA>did

this. I can totally usurp this echo and *nothing* can be done NA>to stop it.

Are you suggesting that LL should do these things too?

I can. But just because I can doesn't mean I should. After all,
I *am* an honorable troll. Just like others of my kind. Besides,
my <N>ext key is broken, and unfixable ...

--Lee

--
We Put Big Loads In Tight Places

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 25/09/2019 19:22, Nick Andre -> David Drummond wrote:

After all, its just free speech, right? And I'm sure you wouldn't mind hitting
the Next key thousands of times to skip all my crap?

I'm sure we'd find a way to filter it - or just drop the echo.

Ahhhh but it appears that you mention whenever anyone complains about

trolls,

to just hit the Next key. "We" shouldn't have to filter anything?

Why not? It is your choice to be offended by the trolls' posts, just as it is their choice to post them. Who are you to be telling them what they may or may not post?

If above, pressing Next a thousand times would be annoying to you, and you would consider filtering or dropping the echo, then logically it must mean that at some point, mentally there is a "line" between what you consider acceptable or not from an individual. Mellow as I know you are, there is

an

annoyance factor when pressing Next is no longer effective.

Indeed there is such a point that I choose not to read those posts. IS my preference not to read more valid than their preference to post?

I'm trying to illustrate that Fido is a small enough network where there

does

not need to be trolls, or nannies enforcing rules.

That is your opinion. Others' may vary. And as yet I've not seen any nannies enforcing any rules. The fact is that echo rules in Fidonet are not enforceable
- the "moderators" are but paper tigers.

We should be mature enough to co-exist and not have someone running a

"free speech" system, because

only to prove that he can, and where the sole output is trolling.

And we should also be mature enough to ignore shit we don't want to read.

I can "prove" I can usurp the Fidonews echo. Totally and thoroughly trash

it

and *nobody* will want to ever connect to it again. Do I need to prove it? Many Sysops will likely tell me, "no". Why? Because I'm not a dick... I respect my fellow Sysops enough that I do not need to prove Free Speech.

That is why the troll needs to go. Its not a free speech thing. Its a

you're

pissing off your fellow Sysops and tarnishing the enjoyment of Fido thing.

Is the troll not entitled to enjoyment too? You are only the "ghod" on your system - not on mine, not on any nodes in Zone 2.

Many popular Internet social media or chat sites have clear policies

against

trolling, some ISP's have them as well. Why should Fido be any different?

Fidonet is not Internet Social Media. Each of those entire sites is managed by one entity. Fidonet is NOT an entity - it is a technical agreement by a bunch of individuals. We are all omnipotent - on our own systems only. You are free to implement a "no trolls" edict on YOUR system. You don't have that power on any others.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

Hello David,

I'm trying to illustrate that Fido is a small enough network where
there does not need to be trolls, or nannies enforcing rules.

That is your opinion. Others' may vary. And as yet I've not seen any

nannies

enforcing any rules. The fact is that echo rules in Fidonet are not enforceable - the "moderators" are but paper tigers.

Everybody likes to play god. But there are no gods. Except in one's
own universe. Whatever that might be.

We should be mature enough to co-exist and not have someone running NA>a

"free speech" system, because only to prove that he can, and NA>where the sole output is trolling.

And we should also be mature enough to ignore shit we don't want to read.

There are those who do not wish to accept reality. Others question
if reality exists, or can exist. OTOH, just because someone may think
that something is real does not make it so. Such as Santa Claus, the
Tooth Fairy, or Lee Lofaso.

I can "prove" I can usurp the Fidonews echo. Totally and thoroughly
trash it and *nobody* will want to ever connect to it again. Do I
need to prove it? Many Sysops will likely tell me, "no". Why? NA>Because

I'm not a dick... I respect my fellow Sysops enough that NA>I do not need to prove Free Speech.

That is why the troll needs to go. Its not a free speech thing. NA>Its a

you're pissing off your fellow Sysops and tarnishing the NA>enjoyment of Fido thing.

Is the troll not entitled to enjoyment too? You are only the "ghod" on

your

system - not on mine, not on any nodes in Zone 2.

Trolls just want to have fun. Same as everybody. That is why there
is no difference between trolls and sysops.

Many popular Internet social media or chat sites have clear NA>policies

against trolling, some ISP's have them as well. Why NA>should Fido be any different?

Fidonet is not Internet Social Media.

Why not?

Each of those entire sites is managed by one entity.

So?

Fidonet is NOT an entity -

Why not?

it is a technical agreement by a bunch of individuals.

Where can I find this "technical agreement"?

We are all omnipotent - on our own systems only.

Does that mean I am free to do my own thing?

You are free to implement a "no trolls" edict on YOUR system.

Hooray! I have nothing to lose but my chains!

<snipping chains>

I am free at last! Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!

You don't have that power on any others.

Trolls need to be fed in order to survive.
That is why we share what we have with others.
Works wonders for us all.

Thanks for the chaincutters.

--Lee

--
Big Or Small We Lay Them All

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On 09-23-19, MARK LEWIS said to DAVID DRUMMOND:

Re: The Rules
By: David Drummond to Alan Ianson on Sun Sep 22 2019 11:40:28

If LL became nodelisted, would his expressed opinions become more

acceptable?

probably not but his activities in restricted access areas would not be so ML>frowned upon...

Does anyone know if there even are `restricted access areas'? (I mean besides `Kracht's' echoes)





---
*Durango b301 #PE*
* Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)

Hello Tim,

If LL became nodelisted, would his expressed opinions become more
acceptable?

probably not but his activities in restricted access areas would ML>not

be so frowned upon...

Does anyone know if there even are `restricted access areas'?

I have no idea.

(I mean besides `Kracht's' echoes)

Sorry. There are unconfirmed reports she has her own hiding places.
But the source (Roy Witt) seems only to be accessible to her.

"He'll be back." ~Janis Kracht

--Lee

--
We're Great In Bed

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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