Why Fidonet?
With all the Media attention the Internet has garnered in the last few years, and thousands of super slick Web Sites at your fingertips, what earthly reason is there to join Fidonet?

It's FREE!
Fidonet is FREE to join and you can stick around forever at no cost! Some Nets do have Cost Recovery Programs (CRP) in place for mail and file distribution but, if one exists, it's often $5.00/month or less for ALL Fidonet echos (the BACKBONE) and the thousands of files distributed (FILEBONE). No need to go searching for new file updates. There are many File Distribution Systems
within Fidonet where new files are automatically sent to all systems which connect to the Filebone.

NETMAIL!
As terrific as Internet Email is, if you HAVE to get a message or file out,
and it has to get their NOW, and you wish to eliminate ALL possibilities of anyone intercepting your message or file attachment, Fido Netmail is the most surefire and secure mail transmission method in existence.

There are 2 kinds of Fidonet Netmail:
DIRECT - Mailer to Mailer call. Provides ultimate security where no one can intercept transmissions!
ROUTED - Alternative to Direct, where messages piggyback from one system in
the Fidonet chain of command, (generally, node, Net, Region, Zone Coordinator, etc.) to another.

It's SECURE!
Some great concerns with the Internet are security breaches and viruses. Mailers used on Fidonet provide the security you need to ensure unauthorized individuals don't break into your system or obtain mail or files for which
they are not designated. They provide complete control, with your directive, over which systems can access yours, and what they can retrieve or send. Viruses are almost unheard of and always have been on Fidonet.

It's MODERATED!
The conference areas on Fidonet have individuals who preside over them, called Moderators, and their "job" is to oversee echo mail discussion and topicality. If your interest is Windows 95, and you join this conference on Fidonet, rest assured, the messages will be generally polite, helpful, on-topic and spam- free. Spam, which often overtakes many of the Internet newgroups, is strictly forbidden in Fidonet echos.

It's CONTENT!
You've heard the adage, "Quality versus Quantity," and few examples ring more true than the content contained within the Fidonet Network. Even newbie users are indoctrinated with the requisite "Netiquette" techniques so that their initial forays into messaging on Fidonet are positive ones. And they stick around because of the high quality content of the message areas. The knowledge base is formidable and readily available for those who ask.

It's COMMUNITY!
Unlike the Internet, Fidonet is not a free-for-all where individuals wander around, unguided, in a vast expanse. It's a Global Community, comprised of bigger and smaller subdivisions, where members join together and regularly assist one another across the street and around the world.

Terry Roati - 3:640/1321 tfb-bbs.org

... Platinum Xpress & Wildcat!..... Nice!!!!
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v7.0
* Origin: The File Bank BBS! (3:640/1321)

Hello Terry,

Why Fidonet?
With all the Media attention the Internet has garnered in the last few years, and thousands of super slick Web Sites at your fingertips, what earthly reason is there to join Fidonet?

It's FREE!

Everything ought to be free!

Fidonet is FREE to join and you can stick around forever at no cost!

There is always a cost. That cost is our time. To do with what
we will. The most precious commodity we can ever have. Once it
is gone, we can never get it back.

Fidonet is not Internet Social Media. Each of those entire sites
is managed by one entity. Fidonet is NOT an entity - it is a
technical agreement by a bunch of individuals. We are all omnipotent
- on our own systems only. You are free to implement a "no trolls"
edict on YOUR system. You don't have that power on any others.

Anybody want to disagree?

Some Nets ...

I do not care about "some nets" or "other nets". This is Fidonet.

[..]

NETMAIL!

Every sysop should make netmail available for everyone who uses
his/her system, not reserving such use solely for himself/herself.
A technical agreement by a "bunch of individuals" is meant to be
shared, not hogged by any one person or small group of people.

[..]

There are 2 kinds of Fidonet Netmail:
DIRECT - Mailer to Mailer call. Provides ultimate security where no one

can

intercept transmissions!
ROUTED - Alternative to Direct, where messages piggyback from one system

in

the Fidonet chain of command, (generally, node, Net, Region, Zone Coordinator, etc.) to another.

All different flavors of netmail should be made accessible to everyone.

It's SECURE!

Only as secure as a sysop wants it to be is not good enough.
The standard has to be the highest for all, not just for some
or even for most.

[..]

It's MODERATED!

Fidonet is never moderated, as such a term would be a contradiction.

The conference areas on Fidonet have individuals who preside over them, called Moderators, and their "job" is to oversee echo mail discussion and topicality.

There are no "moderators" in Fidonet, since messages posted are
not prescreened by anybody.

If your interest is Windows 95, and you join this conference on Fidonet, rest assured, the messages will be generally polite, helpful, on-topic and spam-free.

"I believe in absolute freedom of expression. Everyone has a right
to offend and be offended." ~Taslima Nasrin

Messages in Fidonet are like a box of chocolates. You never know
what you will find inside until you take a bite.

So why not be brave? Take a chance on what you might find? What
a boring life you would have if you never even bother to taste the
forbidden fruit ...

Spam, which often overtakes many of the Internet newgroups, is strictly forbidden in Fidonet echos.

SPAM (the other white meat) is the most popular food in Minnesota.
And also makes for great taglines.

It's CONTENT!

Scrumptiously delicious!

Especially when made into a jambalaya!

You've heard the adage, "Quality versus Quantity," and few examples ring more true than the content contained within the Fidonet Network.

That is true. Roy Witt was king of the FLAME echoes. We need
more of them to make this network alive again. Unfortunately, he
has retired from the field (although there are several rumors he
may return).

Even newbie users are indoctrinated with the requisite "Netiquette" techniques so that their initial forays into messaging on Fidonet are positive ones.

"You should live hoping you are going to offend people, because then
you're doing something." ~Marti Noxon

And they stick around because of the high quality content of the message areas. The knowledge base is formidable and readily available for those

who

ask.

Oh, how I wish Roy Witt was still around. Just think what kind
of Fidonet this would be with Roy Witt in charge of the school that
teaches those newcomers. You would never recognize the place ...

It's COMMUNITY!

A community of what? That is the question.

Unlike the Internet, Fidonet is not a free-for-all where individuals

wander

around, unguided, in a vast expanse. It's a Global Community, comprised of bigger and smaller subdivisions, where members join together and regularly assist one another across the street and around the world.

Read "Breakpoint", by Jeff Stibel. This is a work of non-fiction,
the author showing quite clearly why the web will implode. So please,
do not blame me. This is something that is doomed to failure.

Fidonet is a horse of an entirely different color.
Which is why I am here.
That's right.
It is my stated reason for being.
I am here to save Fidonet from itself.

The problem with Fidonet is that sysops forgot what Fidonet is and
what Fidonet was supposed to be. You see, Fidonet was created by a
screwed up screwball. With a wee bit of help from other screwed up
screwballs. I mean, these screwed up screwballs were so screwed up
they only had one echo in mind for all of Fidonet. With no rules
for any of those screwed up screwballs to abide by. They did not
even bother to name the echo, so it quickly developed a name of its
own, known as FLAME. This is the echo where Roy Witt and his kind
was born.

Today there is not a single FLAME echo to be found anywhere in
Fidonet. Not a single one. Which explains why so many former
Fidonetters are now playing on YouTube. Much easier to use a phone
to go live on camera and shout it to the world rather than bang on
a keyboard something that most folks would be too lazy to read ...

--Lee

--
Big Or Small We Lay Them All

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hi, Terry Roati!
I read your message from 15.10.2019 15:31

TR> Why Fidonet? With all the Media attention the Internet has garnered
TR> in the last few years, and thousands of super slick Web Sites at
TR> your fingertips, what earthly reason is there to join Fidonet?

TR> It's FREE! Fidonet is FREE to join and you can stick around forever
TR> at no cost! Some Nets do have Cost Recovery Programs (CRP) in place
TR> for mail and file distribution but, if one exists, it's often $5.00
TR> /month or less for ALL Fidonet echos (the BACKBONE) and the
TR> thousands of files distributed (FILEBONE). No need to go searching
TR> for new file updates. There are many File Distribution Systems
TR> within Fidonet where new files are automatically sent to all
TR> systems which connect to the Filebone.

TR> NETMAIL! As terrific as Internet Email is, if you HAVE to get a
TR> message or file out, and it has to get their NOW, and you wish to
TR> eliminate ALL possibilities of anyone intercepting your message or
TR> file attachment, Fido Netmail is the most surefire and secure mail
TR> transmission method in existence.

TR> There are 2 kinds of Fidonet Netmail: DIRECT - Mailer to Mailer
TR> call. Provides ultimate security where no one can intercept
TR> transmissions! ROUTED - Alternative to Direct, where messages
TR> piggyback from one system in the Fidonet chain of command,
TR> (generally, node, Net, Region, Zone Coordinator, etc.) to another.

TR> It's SECURE! Some great concerns with the Internet are security
TR> breaches and viruses. Mailers used on Fidonet provide the security
TR> you need to ensure unauthorized individuals don't break into your
TR> system or obtain mail or files for which they are not designated.
TR> They provide complete control, with your directive, over which
TR> systems can access yours, and what they can retrieve or send.
TR> Viruses are almost unheard of and always have been on Fidonet.

TR> It's MODERATED! The conference areas on Fidonet have individuals
TR> who preside over them, called Moderators, and their "job" is to
TR> oversee echo mail discussion and topicality. If your interest is
TR> Windows 95, and you join this conference on Fidonet, rest assured,
TR> the messages will be generally polite, helpful, on-topic and spam-
TR> free. Spam, which often overtakes many of the Internet newgroups,
TR> is strictly forbidden in Fidonet echos.

TR> It's CONTENT! You've heard the adage, "Quality versus Quantity,"
TR> and few examples ring more true than the content contained within
TR> the Fidonet Network. Even newbie users are indoctrinated with the
TR> requisite "Netiquette" techniques so that their initial forays into
TR> messaging on Fidonet are positive ones. And they stick around
TR> because of the high quality content of the message areas. The
TR> knowledge base is formidable and readily available for those who
TR> ask.

TR> It's COMMUNITY! Unlike the Internet, Fidonet is not a free-for-all
TR> where individuals wander around, unguided, in a vast expanse. It's
TR> a Global Community, comprised of bigger and smaller subdivisions,
TR> where members join together and regularly assist one another across
TR> the street and around the world.

He forgot, IMHO, the main Fidonet beauty -- the way we write and answer
each other, using the cute quoting system -- the web social networks
have no such feature, and because of that there are no sensible talking
in these systems. Only chirping and twitting. BTW, most USENET clients
also have no quoting system, or have a very primitive one.

Bye, Terry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido7.fidonews 2019
--- FIDOGATE 5.1.7ds
* Origin: Pushkin's BBS (2:5020/2140.2)

On Oct 16, 2019 11:21am, alexander koryagin wrote to Terry Roati:

He forgot, IMHO, the main Fidonet beauty -- the way we write and answer each other, using the cute quoting system -- the web social networks
have no such feature, and because of that there are no sensible talking
in these systems. Only chirping and twitting. BTW, most USENET clients also have no quoting system, or have a very primitive one.

What some folks forget is when you wanted a technical question answered there was no google or yahoo back then to answer however if you posted in the right Fidonet echo one would usually get a detailed answer and a solution to
problem. The echos were of a high standard, luckily their still some BBS software specfic echos like that still around. Now you can find almost everything on Google or Youtube.

Terry Roati - 3:640/1321 tfb-bbs.org

... Platinum Xpress & Wildcat!..... Nice!!!!
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v7.0
* Origin: The File Bank BBS! (3:640/1321)

Hi, Terry Roati!
I read your message from 17.10.2019 10:16

ak>> He forgot, IMHO, the main Fidonet beauty -- the way we
ak>> write and answer each other, using the cute quoting system
ak>> -- the web social networks have no such feature, and
ak>> because of that there are no sensible talking in these
ak>> systems. Only chirping and twitting. BTW, most USENET
ak>> clients also have no quoting system, or have a very
ak>> primitive one.

TR> What some folks forget is when you wanted a technical question
TR> answered there was no google or yahoo back then to answer
TR> however if you posted in the right Fidonet echo one would
TR> usually get a detailed answer and a solution to problem. The
TR> echos were of a high standard, luckily their still some BBS
TR> software specfic echos like that still around. Now you can find
TR> almost everything on Google or Youtube.

We can observe the fact that hot and interesting discussions died when
many people left Fidonet, and these discussions were not reborn in other social networks. Actually, it was degradation. Most people now want to
follow somebody. They don't talk on equal ground like it has been in
Fidonet. IMHO, people's communication has become much more primitive.

Bye, Terry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido7.fidonews 2019
--- FIDOGATE 5.1.7ds
* Origin: Pushkin's BBS (2:5020/2140.2)

Hello Alexander,

On Oct 18, 2019 09:17am, alexander koryagin wrote to Terry Roati:

We can observe the fact that hot and interesting discussions died when many people left Fidonet, and these discussions were not reborn in other social networks. Actually, it was degradation. Most people now want to follow somebody. They don't talk on equal ground like it has been in Fidonet. IMHO, people's communication has become much more primitive.

I agree content has generally gone down however the communication's have become more agressive (bullying) is getting really bad.

In Australia we have a forum called whirlpool.net.au which is at a fairly high standard which I beleive is due to good moderators which you rarely ever see.

Have a nice day.

Terry Roati - 3:640/1321 tfb-bbs.org

... Platinum Xpress & Wildcat!..... Nice!!!!
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v7.0
* Origin: The File Bank BBS! (3:640/1321)

Hi! Terry,

On 10/18/2019 04:10 PM, you wrote to Alexander Koryagin:

In Australia we have a forum called whirlpool.net.au which is at a
fairly high standard which I beleive is due to good moderators which
you rarely ever see.

That is a go-to place for me too, when I know Fidonet wouldn't be able to help.[sfx: thumbs up] Of course, getting there usually follows a search with Uncle Google first. :)

Cheers,
Paul.

--- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
* Origin: Lymph (v.), to walk with a lisp. (3:640/1384.125)

Hi, Terry Roati!
I read your message from 18.10.2019 10:16

ak>> We can observe the fact that hot and interesting discussions died
ak>> when many people left Fidonet, and these discussions were not
ak>> reborn in other social networks. Actually, it was degradation.
ak>> Most people now want to follow somebody. They don't talk on equal
ak>> ground like it has been in Fidonet. IMHO, people's communication
ak>> has become much more primitive.

TR> I agree content has generally gone down however the communication's
TR> have become more agressive (bullying) is getting really bad.

Well, some philosophers compare every human with a planet. Every soul is
big. Neat. So, suppose you communicate with other planets and no
moderator available. In this case you can either communicate, or break
your aerial if they say nasty things. ;-)

TR> In Australia we have a forum called whirlpool.net.au which is at a
TR> fairly high standard which I beleive is due to good moderators
TR> which you rarely ever see.
TR> Have a nice day.

I believe such places must be also. You have a place to rest. :)

Bye, Terry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido7.fidonews 2019

--- FIDOGATE 5.1.7ds
* Origin: Pushkin's BBS (2:5020/2140.2)

We can observe the fact that hot and interesting discussions died when
many people left Fidonet, and these discussions were not reborn in
other social networks. Actually, it was degradation. Most people now
want to follow somebody. They don't talk on equal ground like it has
been in Fidonet. IMHO, people's communication has become much more primitive.

What is the point in comparing Fidonet with Facebook, Twitter or other social networks? There are interesting and high-quality discussions on the Internet. Just look at the diversity of web forums (some running on software that still has "bulletin board" in the name).

Comparing Facebook with tabloid talk show / trash TV would make more sense than
comparing it with Fidonet.


* Origin: (2:280/464.47)

SEEN-BY: 3634/12 135/205 388 395 390 385 366 115 0

Hi, Oliver Thuns!
I read your message from 21.10.2019 12:12

ak>> We can observe the fact that hot and interesting discussions died
ak>> when many people left Fidonet, and these discussions were not
ak>> reborn in other social networks. Actually, it was degradation.
ak>> Most people now want to follow somebody. They don't talk on equal
ak>> ground like it has been in Fidonet. IMHO, people's communication
ak>> has become much more primitive.

OT> What is the point in comparing Fidonet with Facebook, Twitter or
OT> other social networks? There are interesting and high-quality
OT> discussions on the Internet. Just look at the diversity of web
OT> forums (some running on software that still has "bulletin board" in
OT> the name).

Web forums have no convenient quotation tools that allow many people participate in a hot discussion. Web forums cannot sort and filter
messages -- in short it is very inconvenient in comparing with old
Golded style functionality. The most awful sight in the Internet I've
ever seen is a web forum and its page pointer [1,2,3, 1500] ;=))

OT> Comparing Facebook with tabloid talk show / trash TV would make
OT> more sense than comparing it with Fidonet.

I don't like Facebook because any message there could be deleted if the
owner of the account wants it. As a result we have there unnatural,
hypocrite, worthless talking. Facebook is good if you want to message something.

Bye, Oliver!
Alexander Koryagin
fido7.fidonews 2019

--- FIDOGATE 5.1.7ds
* Origin: Pushkin's BBS (2:5020/2140.2)

It seems another troll has entered the forum.
You know what that means.
I have competition.
Let the games begin! :)

An entity wishing to be known as Oliver Thuns wrote the following -

What is the point in comparing Fidonet with Facebook, Twitter or other social networks? There are interesting and high-quality discussions on the Internet. Just look at the diversity of web forums (some running on software that still has "bulletin board" in the name).

Comparing Facebook with tabloid talk show / trash TV would make more sense than comparing it with Fidonet.

* Origin: (2:280/464.47)

Now why would someone who claims to be a Fidonet sysop want to diss
Fidonet? Certainly that makes no sense. No sense at all.

Digging out current nodelist.

Got it.

No such address is listed.

Could it be we have a troll in our midst?
Not just any troll, but an *evil* troll?

Perhaps a look into yesteryear's nodelists would be of help.
Just to make sure.

Oliver Thuns

2:244/1158 from Frankfurt 1994-1995
2:2465/417 from Frankfurt/M 1994-2000
2:2465/418 from Frankfurt/M 1995-1996
2:250/417 from Weimar Germany 2003-2009

Nothing since.

What we have here in Fidonet is a troll with no name.
The most evil kind of troll there is.
Time to call on the IC (or pseudo-IC as the case may be)
to find an exorcist.

--Lee

--
Pork. The One You Love.

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 2019 Oct 26 17:00:30, you wrote to All:

* Origin: (2:280/464.47)

Now why would someone who claims to be a Fidonet sysop want to diss Fidonet? Certainly that makes no sense. No sense at all.

Digging out current nodelist.

Got it.

No such address is listed.

of course that point address isn't listed... you have to look in the point lists since it is posted from a point system... net280, on the other hand, is certainly listed... kees van eeten is the NC there...

perhaps if you were a real FTN sysop, you'd know the difference and how to look
these things up...

)\/(ark

Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set
them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
... Horn busted! Watch for finger...
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

Hello mark,

On Saturday October 26 2019 11:34, you wrote to Lee Lofaso:

of course that point address isn't listed... you have to look in the
point lists since it is posted from a point system...

freq POINTLIST at my system.

Or R28PNT. Or Z2PNT.

net280, on the other hand, is certainly listed... kees van eeten is
the NC there...

Wrong. I am the NC. Kees is the Host.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

It seems another troll has entered the forum.

You honestly believe there were no other trolls besides you?

You know what that means.
I have competition.

Nobody can compete with you ...

Let the games begin! :)

Party on!

Nothing since.

What we have here in Fidonet is a troll with no name.
The most evil kind of troll there is.

Damn, you broke my cover. Now everybody knows that I'm just a impostor of that guy. Totally fake! Totally evil!

Pork. The One You Love.

Oink Oink 🐷

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Knock! Knock! - Who's there? (2:280/464.47)

On 2019 Oct 26 18:02:14, you wrote to me:

of course that point address isn't listed... you have to look in the
point lists since it is posted from a point system...

freq POINTLIST at my system.

Or R28PNT. Or Z2PNT.

exactly what i was thinking :)

net280, on the other hand, is certainly listed... kees van eeten is
the NC there...

Wrong. I am the NC. Kees is the Host.

my bad for not looking for the NC userflag... apologies...

)\/(ark

Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set
them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
... Procrastination is the art of keeping up with yesterday.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

Hello mark,

On Saturday October 26 2019 12:43, you wrote to me:

net280, on the other hand, is certainly listed... kees van eeten
is the NC there...

Wrong. I am the NC. Kees is the Host.

my bad for not looking for the NC userflag... apologies...

No prob. A common mistake. Kees and I both started with Fidonet in net 500. The
first net outside North America and originating from before Fidonet was split into zones.

In met 500 it was customary to split the Host and NC functions. The Idea was that if the Host goes AWOL, the NC can arrange for a new Host and update the nodelist. IF the NC goes AWOL, the Host can take over and arrange for a new NC to be (s)elected. That way continuity is preserved.

Around 2000 the region was reorganised and we all moved to net 280. When I took
over from Jan Vermeulen as NC280, I continued in the net 500 way. Kees had much
better connectivity than I. I had binkp but my POTS was ZMH only. Kees had CM binkp, POTS and ISDN. So delegating the Host function to him was a logical step. It works for net 280.

Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

On 26 Oct 19 11:34:00, Mark Lewis said the following to Lee Lofaso:

perhaps if you were a real FTN sysop, you'd know the difference and how to look these things up...

The troll does not possess the mental intelligence to look up a node number, let alone apply for one.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

On 10-26-19 17:00, Lee Lofaso <=-
spoke to All about Old Fidonet Information <=-

! Origin: (2:280/464.47)

Now why would someone who claims to be a Fidonet sysop want to diss Fidonet? Certainly that makes no sense. No sense at all.

Digging out current nodelist.

Got it.

No such address is listed.

Clearly, you do not know of what you speak. The address you quote above
is a point off of 2:280/464 which is very much in the nodelist.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 03:33:40, 27 Oct 2019
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

Hello Oli,

It seems another troll has entered the forum.

You honestly believe there were no other trolls besides you?

I will be a model sysop, as I have been a model troll.
What kind of troll are you?

You know what that means.
I have competition.

Nobody can compete with you ...

Well, it is true the only way I can lose is if I'm caught in
bed with either a dead girl or a live boy. Do you really want
to go there?

Let the games begin! :)

Party on!

This is better than Bill & Ted's big adventure!

Nothing since.

What we have here in Fidonet is a troll with no name.
The most evil kind of troll there is.

Damn, you broke my cover. Now everybody knows that I'm just a impostor of that guy. Totally fake! Totally evil!

The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly. All rolled into one!

Pork. The One You Love.

Oink Oink ?

Pig Soieee!!!

--Lee

--
Nobody Beats Our Meat

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Nick,

perhaps if you were a real FTN sysop, you'd know the difference ML>and

how to look these things up...

The troll does not possess the mental intelligence to look up a node

number,

let alone apply for one.

Incorrect address '2:280/464.47'!

--Lee

--
Often Licked, Never Beaten

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Lee,

On Sunday October 27 2019 16:34, you wrote to Nick Andre:

Incorrect address '2:280/464.47'!

=== Cut ===
;A Region 28 pointlist for Friday 25-Oct-2019 -- Day number 298 : 04376
;S Created by PLMAKE 1.08 beta 2008.11.27b
;S Checked against nodelist : REGION28.262
;S
;S This list is called P28-LIST and is copyright the Region Point
;S Koordinator for Region 28, Zone 2, FidoNet. If it has been edited
;S in any way it may not be distributed under its original name.
;S
;S Specific authority is hereby granted to the other FidoNet
;S (Point) Koordinators to process this list in any manner
;S necessary to its inclusion in FidoNet Node- or Pointlists,
;S provided only that it continues to be protected by a compilation
;S copyright in all composite lists.
;S
;S This list is submitted to the Zone 2 pointlist keeper for inclusion
;S in the Z2 point list.
;S
;S VERSPREIDING EN BESCHIKBAARHEID
;S ===============================
;S
;S Deze lijst wordt wekelijks bijgewerkt. De naam is P28-LIST.xxx
;S waarbij xxx het dagnummer. De laatste versie is in gezipte vorm
;S file requestbaar op 2:280/5555. Middels binkp op elk willekeurig
;S tijdpstip. De nieuwste lijst is vanaf Vrijdagochtend 00:10 beschikbaar.
;S
;S Hosten, hubs en anderen die de laatste versie van deze lijst ten
;S behoeve van derden file requestable willen maken worden verzocht
;S de magic POINT28 te gebruiken voor de gezipte versie P28-LIST.Zxx.
;S
;S De volledige lijst wordt verspreid in de file area P28LIST.
;S
;S Ze is ook beschikbaar op http://www.vlist.eu/downloads/fidolist/.
;S
;S Het aanmaken en verspreiden van een diff is definitief gestaakt.
;S
;S DE ZONE 2 POINTLIJST
;S ====================
;S
;S De R28 lijst wordt wekelijks verzonden naar de ZPK voor opname in de
;S Zone 2 pointlijst. Van die lijst worden diffs verspreid via de file
;S area Z2PNT_D.
;S
;S De volledige Z2 pointlijst is onder de magic Z2PNT alhier (2:280/5555)
;S te freqqen.
;S Ze is te downloaden op http://www.vlist.eu/downloads/fidolist/
;S
;S De lijst en de laatste diffs zijn ook te downloaden op:
;S
;S http://ambrosia60.dtdns.net/bbsfiles/index.htm
;S
;S ftp://ambrosia60.dtdns.net/service/z2pnt/freq/z2pnt.z??
;S ftp://ambrosia60.dtdns.net/service/xpntz2di/freq/z2pnt_d.z??
;S
;S
;S WIJZE VAN AANLEVEREN VAN GEGEVENS
;S =================================
;S
;S Lijstjes van pointvoerende nodes kunnen op twee manieren worden
;S aangeleverd bij de RPK.
;S
;S 1) Als (geroute) netmail
;S ========================
;S
;S Deze methode heeft de voorkeur voor niet al te grote lijstjes.
;S
;S In het To: veld moet staan "CHECKPNT", "RPC28" of "Michiel van
;S der Vlist". (Uiteraard zonder de quotes) Subject: nnnPxxxx.LST
;S waarbij nnn het netnummer en xxxx het nodenummer van de
;S afzender. Let er op dat er voor het nodenummer precies vier
;S cijfers ingevuld worden. Als het nummer <1000 is opvullen met
;S voorloopnullen. Voorbeeld: 2:280/100 zendt zijn lijstje in met in
;S het subject veld 280P0100.LST. 2:292/624 als 292P0624.LST.
;S
;S Het bericht moet afkomstig zijn van de node met hetzelfde nummer
;S als bij nnn en xxxx opgegeven. Het moet echt van de eigen node
;S komen, dus niet van een pointnummer of een ander nodenummer. Van
;S die laatste voorwaarden kan worden afgeweken door met mij een
;S password af te spreken. Dan kan het door een van de points of
;S een collega sysop verzorgd worden.
;S
;S In het subjectveld moet dan staan: "nnnPxxxx.LST !password". Het
;S password is hoofdletter gevoelig. Ook in geval men de lijst
;S geheel zelf verzorgt kan een password worden gebruikt om
;S misbruik tegen te gaan. Voor wie met mij ook een session password
;S heeft afgesproken: het bovengenoemde password mag niet hetzelfde
;S zijn als het session password.
;S
;S In de body van het bericht mag aanvullende info staan. Die moet
;S van de eigenlijke lijst gescheiden worden door een of meer lege
;S regels. Een tearline (een regel beginnend met "---", optioneel
;S gevolgd door een spatie en meer tekst) mag ook gebruikt worden als
;S "einde lijst". In de secties met extra info mag niets staan wat op
;S een pointlijst lijkt. PGP clearsig mag ook.
;S
;S Overigens zal die extra info in de meeste gevallen genegeerd
;S worden. Het wordt in principe allemaal automatisch verwerkt. Dus
;S als het de bedoeling is dat ik het echt lees, kun je beter een
;S apart bericht sturen - met iets anders in het subjectveld
;S uiteraard :-)
;S
;S Houd bij het direct - dus niet geroute - afleveren van netmail er
;S ook rekening mee dat mijn systeem de MN vlag voert. Dat betekent
;S dat gecomprimeerde mail niet automatisch verwerkt wordt, tenzij
;S met mij een wachtwoord is afgesproken. Lever directe netmail dus af
;S als *.PKT of spreek met mij een wachtwoord af.
;S
;S Voor lijstjes met heel veel points (lijstjes groter dan ca 15
;S kB) wordt deze methode ontraden. Er is kans dat het niet
;S overkomt. Gebruik dan methode 2.
;S
;S 2) Als file attach.
;S ===================
;S
;S Om files als attaches bij mij af te leveren is het wenselijk met
;S mij een session password af te spreken. Anders komen ze in de
;S insecure inbound en worden niet automatisch verwerkt. Let er op dat
;S mijn systeem niet CM is. De openingstijden zijn ZMH en het uur
;S ervoor (01:30 - 03:30 UTC). Dat is voor POTS. Middels binkp is mijn
;S syteem continue bereikbaar.
;S
;S Filenaam nnnPxxxx.LST waarbij nnn het net en xxxx het nodenummer.
;S Let er op dat vier cijfers ingevuld worden voor het nodenummer.
;S Als het nummer <1000 is opvullen met voorloopnullen. Als je het
;S zelfde lijstje opnieuw instuurt om te laten weten dat er niets
;S veranderd is - dat is voor mij eigenlijk het makkelijkste,
;S kattenbelletjes met "er is niets gewijzigd" moet ik met de hand
;S verwerken - laat dan even een touch los op de file voor verzenden.
;S Dan weet mijn klaag-software ook dat er een update is geweest.
;S Die kijkt namelijk naar de filedatum en niet naar datum van aankomst.
;S
;S Let er op dat het systeem bestanden met een datum/tijdstempel dat
;S in de toekomst ligt niet goed kan verwerken. Probeer dus niet de termijn
;S van de noodzakelijke vernieuwing op te rekken door toekomstgedateerde
;S bestanden te sturen. Dat werkt averechts.
;S
;S
;S Het formaat
;S ===========
;S
;S De beide varianten van het St. Louis formaat worden geaccepteerd.
;S De voorkeur gaat echter uit naar de "Boss" variant van het St. Louis
;S formaat. Dat is het formaat waarin de landelijke pointlijst wordt
;S verspreid en wat gedefinieerd is in FTS-5002 paragraaf 2.1.
;S
;S De timing
;S =========
;S
;S De Regionale pointlijst wordt Vrijdagochtend kort na middernacht
;S aangemaakt. Om meegenomen te worden moet een bijdrage voor middernacht
;S locale tijd op mijn systeem aanwezig zijn.
;S
;S Geen points meer.
;S =================
;S
;S Wie geen points meer heeft die in de lijst opgenomen willen worden
;S kan dit kenbaar maken door een lijstje te sturen met enkel een
;S "Boss" regel.
;S
;S
;S Vervaldatum.
;S ============
;S
;S De realiteit gebiedt ons te erkennen dat met de dalende belangstelling
;S voor FidoNet er steeds meer points afhaken. Lijstjes ouder dan zes
;S maanden worden daarom onbetrouwbaar geacht en niet meer verwerkt. Een
;S automaat zet ze terzijde. De eenvoudigste manier om de points weer opge-
;S nomen te krijgen is het sturen van een nieuw lijstje of hetzelfde lijstje
;S met een vers datum/tijd stempel. Een kattenbelletje met "er is niets
;S gewijzigd" mag ook maar omdat dat handmatig verwerkt moet worden heeft
;S het niet de voorkeur en er kan vertraging optreden.
;S
;S Sysops wordt geadviseerd points die met de noorderzon vertrokken zijn
;S uit de lijst te verwijderen als ze langer dan twee maanden niet gepolled
;S hebben.
;S
;S
;S Suc6, Michiel
;S
;S *************************************************************************
;
Boss,2:280/464 ,47,Frederick,Lummerland_Germany,Oliver_Thuns,-Unpublished-,300,CM,MO ,64,Masakrator,Tarnow_Poland,Marcin_Lukasik,-Unpublished-,300,CM,MO,IBN:85.28.1
28.105
,112,point@work,Lisse,Wilfred_van_Velzen,-Unpublished-,300,PING ,113,Little_Mikey's_EuroPoint,Ladysmith_BC_Canada,Maurice_Kinal,-Unpublished-,3
00,CM,MO,IBN:184.69.113.94
; Boss,2:280/1049,The_Coast,Ouddorp_NL,Simon_Voortman,-Unpublished-,2400,INA:thec
oastbbs.nl,IBN,ICM ,1,Simon_Voortman,Ouddorp_NL,Simon_Voortman,-Unpublished-,9600,MO
; Boss,2:280/1208,UniCorn_BBS,Arnhem,Henri_Derksen,-Unpublished-,300,CM,MO,IBN:un
icornbbs.demon.nl,U,ENC ,1,[FidoNet_Point_1_of_UniCorn_BBS],Arnhem.NL,Henri_Derksen,-Unpublished-,28800
,VFC,V34,V42B,MO ,3,[FidoNet_Point_3_of_UniCorn_BBS],Arnhem.NL,Kip_Drie,-Unpublished-,28800,VFC,
V34,V42B,MO
;
Boss,2:280/5003
,4,Point-x,Heerhugowaard,Kees_van_Eeten,-Unpublished-,2400
;
Boss,2:280/5555 ,1,Klein_Schnoord,On_the_move_Somewhere,Michiel_van_der_Vlist,-Unpublished-,300
,PING,U,ENC
;S
;S ************************************************************************** ;S
;S TECHNICAL INFORMATION
;S =====================
;S
;S Entries in the above list should comply with FTS-5002 and as
;S far as applicable, FTS-5000 and FTS-5001 (formerly FTS-0005).
;S Also note this:
;S
;S Authorised values for the speed field: 300,1200,2400,4800,9600,12000, ;S 14400,16800,19200,21600,28800,33600,38400,56000,57600,64000,128000
;S
;S Authorised flags:
;S
;S XA,XB,XC,XP,XR,XW,XX,CM,MO,MN,LO,V42,V42B,MNP,V22,V32,V32B
;S V32T,ZYX,Z19,HST,H14,H16,MAX,PEP,CSP,VFC,V34,V110L,V110H
;S V120H,V120L,X75,ISDN,X2S,X2C,V90S,V90C,IBN,IFC,ITN,IVM,IP,INA
;S IEM,ITX,IMI,ISE,IUC,EVY,EMA,PING,ICM,NOZMH,Tyz
;S
;S Authorised user flags:
;S
;S ENC,ZPK,RPK,NPK,CDP,SDS,SMH
;S
;S For the definition of these flags see the nodelist epilogue.
;S
;S Redundancy of flags as listed in the nodelist epilogue and
;S as defined in the latest ZC2's ERRFLAGS.ZC2 control file is
;S to be observed.
;S
;S In addition to the redundancies specified above, the following
;S redundancies are in effect as documented in version 2 of FTS-5001.
;S
;S V32 implies V22
;S V32B implies V22 V32
;S V32T implies V22 V32 V32B
;S VFC implies V22 V32 V32B
;S V34 implies V22 V32 V32B
;S X2C implies V22 V32 V32B V34
;S X2S implies V22 V32 V32B V34
;S V90C implies V22 V32 V32B V34
;S V90S implies V22 V32 V32B V34
;S
;S Special flag: NOZMH
;S This flag may only be used in combination with one or more
;S Tyz flags.
;S This flag indicates that the system is online during the
;S times indicated by the Tyz flags, but NOT during ZMH. If the
;S system has both PSTN/ISDN and IP capabilities and also carries
;S an ICM flag, the NOZMH and Tyz flags only apply to the PSTN/ISDN
;S part of the system.
;S
;S Special User flags:
;S
;S RPK : Region pointlist keeper. (only one per region)
;S NPK : Net pointlist keeper. (only one per net)
;S
;S It is recommended to use capability and on-line flags with
;S reluctance. There is not much point in listing extensive
;S capabilities for an undialable system.
;S
;S
;S De meeste nodelist compilers kunnen deze lijst verwerken in de
;S vorm waarin ze wordt gedistribueerd. Wie per se het oude
;S FidoUser formaat nodig heeft kan gebruik maken van het programma
;S MakePl om het naar dat formaat te converteren. Freq MAKEPL op
;S 2:280/5555.
;S ---
=== Cut ===
Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hello Dale,

! Origin: (2:280/464.47)

Now why would someone who claims to be a Fidonet sysop want to diss
Fidonet? Certainly that makes no sense. No sense at all.

Digging out current nodelist.

Got it.

No such address is listed.

Clearly, you do not know of what you speak. The address you quote above is a point off of 2:280/464 which is very much in the nodelist.

A point is not a nodelisted sysop.

The same as all other trolls.

"I never speak ill of dead people or live judges." ~Edwin Edwards

Sysops should never discriminate between trolls. Either allow
all trolls to play as equals, or allow none at all to play.

Can't have it both ways.

--Lee

--
Our Nuts, Your Mouth

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 28/10/2019 06:20, Lee Lofaso -> Dale Shipp wrote:

No such address is listed.

Clearly, you do not know of what you speak. The address you quote above
is a point off of 2:280/464 which is very much in the nodelist.

A point is not a nodelisted sysop.

Posting from a point does not stop one from being nodelisted. Many "nodelisted sysops" post from points.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

Hello Michiel,

Incorrect address '2:280/464.47'!

MvdV> ;A Region 28 pointlist for Friday 25-Oct-2019 -- Day number 298 : 04376
MvdV> ;S Created by PLMAKE 1.08 beta 2008.11.27b
MvdV> ;S Checked against nodelist : REGION28.262

[..]

MvdV> ;S This list is submitted to the Zone 2 pointlist keeper for inclusion
MvdV> ;S in the Z2 point list.
MvdV> ;S
MvdV> ;S VERSPREIDING EN BESCHIKBAARHEID

According to your own definition, points are not nodelisted sysops.
Which means there are only two kinds of people in Fidonet. There are
sysops, and there are trolls.

Since points are welcomed as sysops, then so are trolls. After
all, they are one and the same. That is very sound logic, wouldn't
you agree?

Not all trolls are part of somebody's list. And that is the way
it should be. Unlimited freedom of speech should be the gold standard
for all. Fidonet sysops can make that happen. If they want to.

--Lee

--
As Good As It Looks

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 28/10/2019 13:36, Lee Lofaso -> Michiel van der Vlist wrote:

According to your own definition, points are not nodelisted sysops.
Which means there are only two kinds of people in Fidonet. There are sysops, and there are trolls.

Actually, it's sysops and users.

Since points are welcomed as sysops, then so are trolls.

Only if they become nodelisted.

After all, they are one and the same. That is very sound logic, wouldn't you agree?

Nope.

Not all trolls are part of somebody's list. And that is the way
it should be. Unlimited freedom of speech should be the gold standard
for all.

Where do you get this daft idea that there is any offer/guarantee of "freedom of speech" in Fidonet? No such promise is made anywhere.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 10-27-19 22:20, Lee Lofaso <=-
spoke to Dale Shipp about Old Fidonet Informat <=-

! Origin: (2:280/464.47)

Now why would someone who claims to be a Fidonet sysop want to diss
Fidonet? Certainly that makes no sense. No sense at all.

Just when did he claim to be a sysop?

Clearly, you do not know of what you speak. The address you quote above is a point off of 2:280/464 which is very much in the nodelist.

A point is not a nodelisted sysop.

Exactly -- you should have known that.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 01:20:01, 28 Oct 2019
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

According to your own definition, points are not nodelisted sysops.
Which means there are only two kinds of people in Fidonet. There are sysops, and there are trolls.

Since points are welcomed as sysops, then so are trolls. After
all, they are one and the same. That is very sound logic, wouldn't
you agree?

In my definition these words are not mutually exclusive.

Troll
If you believe in that concept, every participant in Fidonet has the potential to be troll. Being a BBS or NNTP user, a point, node, RC, ZC or IC doesn't prevent one being a troll (or declared by someone else as a troll).

Node / Point
Technically there is not much difference between a node and a point. Technically a node address is also a point address with the number 0 in the point field. I have a node address in another fido-compatible network, but only
a point address in Fidonet. I'm using the same software for both and the same kind of software as every other node uses. If I would apply for a node address in Fidonet, I would only have to change the point address into a node address in a couple of config files.

Sysop
For me a sysop is someone who operates a BBS or a system that is used by other users. Technically I could run a BBS that is connected to Fidonet with a point address. My boss node most likely would convince me to get a node address.

As a node I could also use one of my point addresses for my BBS, a gateways and/or my personal mail. The fido address itself doesn't tell you much about the status of that user within fidonet. For normal conversations this shouldn't
be an issue, because it's just people talking, not two (or three or four) kinds
of people.

---
* Origin: (2:280/464.47)

Hello David,

No such address is listed.

Clearly, you do not know of what you speak. The address you quote above
is a point off of 2:280/464 which is very much in the nodelist.

A point is not a nodelisted sysop.

Posting from a point does not stop one from being nodelisted. Many "nodelisted sysops" post from points.

Many trolls do the same. Which means there is no difference
between sysops and trolls. Thank you for making my point. :)

--Lee

--
Make Sure Your Next Erection Is In Safe Hands

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 28 Oct 19 05:36:36, Lee Lofaso said the following to Michiel Van Der Vlist:

it should be. Unlimited freedom of speech should be the gold standard
for all. Fidonet sysops can make that happen. If they want to.

Show me, fucknuts, where in P4 it states you have freedom of speech.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

On 28/10/2019 20:12, Lee Lofaso -> David Drummond wrote:

No such address is listed.

Clearly, you do not know of what you speak. The address you quote above
is a point off of 2:280/464 which is very much in the nodelist.

A point is not a nodelisted sysop.

Posting from a point does not stop one from being nodelisted. Many
"nodelisted sysops" post from points.

Many trolls do the same. Which means there is no difference
between sysops and trolls.

Sysops can always always be trolls, trolls cannot always be sysops.

Sysop is a technical term, troll is an behavioural observation.

Thank you for making my point. :)

Which was???

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

Re: Old Fidonet Information
By: Paul Quinn to Terry Roati on Fri Oct 18 2019 05:51 pm

[sfx: thumbs up]

Is this "[sfx: stuff]" an actual thing recognized by some message reader(s) somewhere or just something you're adding for fun? Just curious,

digital man

Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #79:
UDP = User Datagram Protocol
Norco, CA WX: 71.5�F, 32.0% humidity, 2 mph NNW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)

Hi! Rob,

On 10/30/2019 06:37 AM, you wrote:

By: Paul Quinn to Terry Roati on Fri Oct 18 2019 05:51 pm

[sfx: thumbs up]

Is this "[sfx: stuff]" an actual thing recognized by some message reader(s) somewhere or just something you're adding for fun? Just curious,

A bit of both ('reader', meaning a human). I rarely originate styles, so it must have been something I picked up from others' use in echomail over the last
26+ years.

It's a textual thing so I very much doubt there's any software link, but at the
same time it is a step beyond simple smilies and avatars. It's meant to evoke a memory or general impression of a situation, or perhaps even recalling a musical piece to provide an aura.

Rock on...

Cheers,
Paul.

--- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
* Origin: I only started a BBS to save on the phone bill. (3:640/1384.125)

Hello Nick,

it should be. Unlimited freedom of speech should be the gold standard
for all. Fidonet sysops can make that happen. If they want to.

Show me, fucknuts, where in P4 it states you have freedom of speech.

Every sysop is lord and master over his/her own system.

A legal contract must be signed (and preferably dated) by all
parties. Usually two, being the norm. Who or what are the parties,
and who signed the document?

It's a simple question.

Show me who signed that piece of cyberjunk, if you can.

Oh, my! Not a single signature! Who'd a thunk?

Nobody knows who wrote it.
And nobody bothered to sign it.
What do you think that means?

You haven't got the faintest idea as to who wrote it.
Not to worry. Nobody else has the faintest idea either.
And whoever did write it is most probably six feet under.
Not that it matters, as it is still cyberjunk.

This unsigned document was never passed/ratified by any zone.
In fact, the only vote that was taken was in zone 2, where sysops
unanimously *rejected* it.

And yet it is stated in P4 that wannabe sysops are compelled to
swear a loyalty oath to that piece of cyberjunk in order to become
a full-fledged sysop! What a crock of holy baloney!

What that means is you have no legitimate authority to act
in any capacity as a representative for other sysops in Fidonet.
None at all.

You see, all authority/power is vested in individual sysops.
And to date, they still maintain the right to refuse to allow
any and all others to usurp their own power/authority.

See how that works?

Gosh. I am one smart fucknut.

David D's definition stands unchanged.

--Lee

--
We Make Your Wet Dreams Come True

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello David,

No such address is listed.

Clearly, you do not know of what you speak. The address you quote

above

is a point off of 2:280/464 which is very much in the nodelist.

A point is not a nodelisted sysop.

Posting from a point does not stop one from being nodelisted. Many
"nodelisted sysops" post from points.

Many trolls do the same. Which means there is no difference
between sysops and trolls.

Sysops can always always be trolls, trolls cannot always be sysops.

Most sysops do not have a clue as to how to have fun.

Sysop is a technical term, troll is an behavioural observation.

Trolls just want to have fun.

Thank you for making my point. :)

Which was???

Sysops are jealous. Trolls get all the fun.

--Lee

--
Change Is Cumming

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello David,

According to your own definition, points are not nodelisted sysops.
Which means there are only two kinds of people in Fidonet. There are
sysops, and there are trolls.

Actually, it's sysops and users.

Trolls serve a purpose. And are both loved and despised.
The best of both worlds. Unlike users, trolls just want to
have fun. Which is why Fidonet has always been a user-free
environment.

Since points are welcomed as sysops, then so are trolls.

Only if they become nodelisted.

No troll would get caught dead being nodelisted.
Which is why no troll has ever been nodelisted.

After all, they are one and the same. That is very sound logic,
wouldn't you agree?

Nope.

Why not?

Not all trolls are part of somebody's list. And that is the way
it should be. Unlimited freedom of speech should be the gold standard
for all.

Where do you get this daft idea that there is any offer/guarantee of "freedom of speech" in Fidonet? No such promise is made anywhere.

I said it *should* be. Not that it is. Do note the difference. :)

--Lee

--
Nobody Beats Our Meat

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 7/11/2019 09:31, Lee Lofaso -> Nick Andre wrote:

Show me, fucknuts, where in P4 it states you have freedom of speech.

Every sysop is lord and master over his/her own system.

And every other lord and master is not obliged to allow your system to communicate with theirs.

A legal contract must be signed (and preferably dated) by all
parties. Usually two, being the norm. Who or what are the parties,
and who signed the document?

It's a simple question.

Show me who signed that piece of cyberjunk, if you can.

The obligation comes from the party your node is trying to connect to. If they don't want you connecting then you have no right to connect.

Even in this day of IP nodes fire-walling out other nodes has been an oft-used practice (and may again when a certain party is resurrected)
[...]

This unsigned document was never passed/ratified by any zone.
In fact, the only vote that was taken was in zone 2, where sysops unanimously *rejected* it.

And yet they submit to its technical requirements ... or they cannot connect.

And yet it is stated in P4 that wannabe sysops are compelled to
swear a loyalty oath to that piece of cyberjunk in order to become
a full-fledged sysop! What a crock of holy baloney!

If that is the requirement of the NC you're applying to then you have to comply
of they will not list you. There is no legal requirement for them to do so ... (well, not in this country, your country's fucked up legal system may differ).

What that means is you have no legitimate authority to act
in any capacity as a representative for other sysops in Fidonet.
None at all.

And no obligation to list your system or communicate with it.

Fidonet is about co-operation. Have you heard of this concept? Your either co-operate with the others or you find you're limited to your own sand pit and no more.

You see, all authority/power is vested in individual sysops.
And to date, they still maintain the right to refuse to allow
any and all others to usurp their own power/authority.

And those others can exert their right/powers not to allow their systems to communicate with yours.

See how that works?

See how real life works?

Gosh. I am one smart fucknut.

A legend in your own mind.

David D's definition stands unchanged.

But only on OUR OWN systems. We have no obligation to allow others to connect with our little empires.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 7/11/2019 09:31, Lee Lofaso -> David Drummond wrote:

Many trolls do the same. Which means there is no difference
between sysops and trolls.

Sysops can always always be trolls, trolls cannot always be sysops.

Most sysops do not have a clue as to how to have fun.

Fun is not so easy to define. One person's fun is another's hell.

Sysop is a technical term, troll is an behavioural observation.

Trolls just want to have fun.

And sysops are under no obligation to allow that "fun"

Thank you for making my point. :)

Which was???

Sysops are jealous. Trolls get all the fun.

Some of us find censoring our others to be fun.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 7/11/2019 09:32, Lee Lofaso -> David Drummond wrote:

Since points are welcomed as sysops, then so are trolls.

Only if they become nodelisted.

No troll would get caught dead being nodelisted.
Which is why no troll has ever been nodelisted.

That is incorrect - as you will find out come the "resurrection".
[...]

Not all trolls are part of somebody's list. And that is the way
it should be. Unlimited freedom of speech should be the gold standard
for all.

Where do you get this daft idea that there is any offer/guarantee of
"freedom of speech" in Fidonet? No such promise is made anywhere.

I said it *should* be. Not that it is. Do note the difference. :)

What "should be" is often a matter of personal opinion. I'm sure that some would consider that you "should be" placed in an odd shaped pine box and the lid screwed down.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 07 Nov 19 01:31:47, Lee Lofaso said the following to Nick Andre:

Show me, fucknuts, where in P4 it states you have freedom of speech.

Every sysop is lord and master over his/her own system.

Its momentarily interesting how we hear nothing from you and Bjorn for a short while, and now the two of you appear to be chiming-in together, in unison. Messages from the both of you, within a short time.

I'm almost convinced you two are the same person, or more specifically a figment of Bjorn's imagination and its all just a gay masturbatory fantasy... the writing styles are even getting to be the same elsewhere in other echoes.

I guarantee when Bjorn finally vanishes, you'll be gone; and if you're not, eventually you will be as you do not have the intelligence to survive without a good thorough free-speech cocksuck from your significant other.

Enjoy your access while you can, eventually you'll be gone.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

I'm almost convinced you two are the same person...

Totally separately I came to consider this too as viable ...

And there is at least one other RPG-person hiding in the Z2-woodwork ...

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.99
* Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)

I'm almost convinced you two are the same person, or more specifically a figment of Bjorn's imagination and its all just a gay masturbatory fantasy...
the writing styles are even getting to be the same elsewhere in other echoes.

Thank you. Gosh, I'm flattered that a native USAian actually thinks that my take on a language that's not even my second one, is as good as Lee's -- another native USAian.

Unfortunately I'm sure that the readers from down under, like me raised with
The Queen's English, easily can spot the difference from miles away...



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Thank you. Gosh, I'm flattered that a native USAian actually thinks
that my take on a language that's not even my second one, is as good as Lee's -- another native USAian.

Mick Andre is Canadian.

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.99
* Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)

Hello Bj�rn,

I'm almost convinced you two are the same person, or more specifically
a
figment of Bjorn's imagination and its all just a gay masturbatory
fantasy...
the writing styles are even getting to be the same elsewhere in other
echoes.

Thank you. Gosh, I'm flattered that a native USAian actually thinks that

my

take on a language that's not even my second one, is as good as Lee's -- another native USAian.

I am Cajun. Not American. There is no such animal as Cajun-American,
with or without a hyphen. After all, Cajuns were here first. Aside
from Native Americans, who taught us how to survive in this strange new
land.

My grandfather was Sicilian, born in Alia, Sicily.
He spoke fluent Sicilian (Italian).
My grandmother was Cajun, born in Edgard, Louisiana.
She spoke fluent Cajun French (French).

In kindergarten, I had no choice but to converse in Cajun
French due to the fact that our teacher spoke only Cajun French.
Either she never heard anybody speak a word of English, or she
refused to listen to any kid who tried to speak a word of English.
Either way, we all did as the teacher wanted, speaking only Cajun
French.

I can still recite the Pledge of Allegiance in Cajun French.
And sing The Star-Spangled Banner in Cajun French.

These are things I still remember from when I was a kid.

Unfortunately I'm sure that the readers from down under, like me raised

with

The Queen's English, easily can spot the difference from miles away...

My great-grandfather was the editor of a real newspaper in Edgard,
Louisiana. The plantation home where he lived is still standing today.
His most famous work is a piece of fiction, known worldwide. He wrote
it in Cajun French, but most people who have read it have only read
an English translation.

I am going to publish it, in its entirety, in the Fidonews.

Assuming the editor will grant me that wish. :)

Here comes Peter Cottontail, hopping along the bunny trail ...

--Lee

--
We Put Big Loads In Tight Places

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello David,

Show me, fucknuts, where in P4 it states you have freedom of speech.

Every sysop is lord and master over his/her own system.

And every other lord and master is not obliged to allow your system to communicate with theirs.

That would be a disservice to those who use their system.

A legal contract must be signed (and preferably dated) by all
parties. Usually two, being the norm. Who or what are the parties,
and who signed the document?

It's a simple question.

Show me who signed that piece of cyberjunk, if you can.

The obligation comes from the party your node is trying to connect to. If they don't want you connecting then you have no right to connect.

Did the node one is trying to connect with sign that piece of
cyberjunk? If so, please show his/her signature.

Even in this day of IP nodes fire-walling out other nodes has been an oft-used practice (and may again when a certain party is resurrected)

It is one thing to use an unsigned document as some kind of guideline.
Quite another to insist it is binding on all sysops and sysop wannabes.

Michiel van der Vlist insists on all sysops following "the rules" -
whatever those rules may be. He also has often stated his dislike
and distaste for P4, for reasons of his own.

[...]

This unsigned document was never passed/ratified by any zone.
In fact, the only vote that was taken was in zone 2, where sysops
unanimously *rejected* it.

And yet they submit to its technical requirements ... or they cannot connect.

Just because some technical requirements for making this network
work are noted in P4 does not make the document legally binding on
anyone.

And yet it is stated in P4 that wannabe sysops are compelled to
swear a loyalty oath to that piece of cyberjunk in order to become
a full-fledged sysop! What a crock of holy baloney!

If that is the requirement of the NC you're applying to then you have to comply of they will not list you.

In Germany people used to have to swear a loyalty oath to Hitler
in order to survive. Should sysops have to do the same in order to
remain nodelisted? Should applicants be forced to do so in order
to appease the Hitler in charge of Fidonet?

That is what P4 says applicants have to do in order to even be
considered. Please tell me that makes sense.

There is no legal requirement for them to do so ... (well, not in this country, your country's fucked up legal system may differ).

I live in TrumpLand, which hardly qualifies as a country of any kind.

What that means is you have no legitimate authority to act
in any capacity as a representative for other sysops in Fidonet.
None at all.

And no obligation to list your system or communicate with it.

Thank God Trump lives in the Twitterverse rather than Fidonet.

Fidonet is about co-operation.

Cooperative anarchy. That is what Tom Jennings called it.

Have you heard of this concept?

Hey. I give credit where credit is due. Tom Jennings said it first.

Your either co-operate with the others or you find you're limited to your own sand pit and no more.

Tom Jennings did not say either/or.

He stated, quite clearly, cooperative anarchy.

That is two words.

You see, all authority/power is vested in individual sysops.
And to date, they still maintain the right to refuse to allow
any and all others to usurp their own power/authority.

And those others can exert their right/powers not to allow their systems

to

communicate with yours.

It is not either/or.

The term is cooperative anarchy.

cooperative - willing to work with others.

anarchy - a social structure without government or law and order.

Put the two together and what do you have? Fidonet!

See how that works?

See how real life works?

Like a charm.

Gosh. I am one smart fucknut.

A legend in your own mind.

The one and only.

David D's definition stands unchanged.

But only on OUR OWN systems. We have no obligation to allow others to connect with our little empires.

But oh so much more fun to play with everybody's toys rather
than just your own!

--Lee

--
Big Or Small We Lay Them All

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello David,

Many trolls do the same. Which means there is no difference
between sysops and trolls.

Sysops can always always be trolls, trolls cannot always be sysops.

Most sysops do not have a clue as to how to have fun.

Fun is not so easy to define. One person's fun is another's hell.

Cyndi Lauper never had to explain her idea of fun to anybody.
And any guy who tells you her kind of fun is his kind of hell
would be either lying to your face or totally insane.

Sysop is a technical term, troll is an behavioural observation.

Trolls just want to have fun.

And sysops are under no obligation to allow that "fun"

I would never deny Cyndi Lauper from having her kind of fun with me.

Thank you for making my point. :)

Which was???

Sysops are jealous. Trolls get all the fun.

Some of us find censoring our others to be fun.

The right to free speech means nothing without the right to offend.

--Lee

--
Nobody Beats Our Meat

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello David,

Since points are welcomed as sysops, then so are trolls.

Only if they become nodelisted.

No troll would get caught dead being nodelisted.
Which is why no troll has ever been nodelisted.

That is incorrect - as you will find out come the "resurrection".

"Girls just wanna have fun." ~Cyndi Lauper

So do trolls. Which is why we love her oh so much!

[...]

Not all trolls are part of somebody's list. And that is the way
it should be. Unlimited freedom of speech should be the gold
standard for all.

Where do you get this daft idea that there is any offer/guarantee of
"freedom of speech" in Fidonet? No such promise is made anywhere.

I said it *should* be. Not that it is. Do note the difference. :)

What "should be" is often a matter of personal opinion.

"Trump is always right" is often a matter of opinion among the masses.

I'm sure that some would consider that you "should be" placed in an odd shaped pine box and the lid screwed down.

Oh, come now. I live in the swamp. Alligators are my friends ...

--Lee

--
Nobody Beats Our Meat

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 9/11/2019 08:46, Lee Lofaso -> David Drummond wrote:

Show me, fucknuts, where in P4 it states you have freedom of

speech.

Every sysop is lord and master over his/her own system.

And every other lord and master is not obliged to allow your system to
communicate with theirs.

That would be a disservice to those who use their system.

That's the joys of being a lord and master. People fuck you around and you just
fuck back.

A legal contract must be signed (and preferably dated) by all
parties. Usually two, being the norm. Who or what are the parties,
and who signed the document?

It's a simple question.

Show me who signed that piece of cyberjunk, if you can.

The obligation comes from the party your node is trying to connect to. If
they don't want you connecting then you have no right to connect.

Did the node one is trying to connect with sign that piece of
cyberjunk? If so, please show his/her signature.

NOBODY signed it. We signified in a message to the NC that we would comply/adhere to the technical requirements.

Even in this day of IP nodes fire-walling out other nodes has been an
oft-used practice (and may again when a certain party is resurrected)

It is one thing to use an unsigned document as some kind of guideline. Quite another to insist it is binding on all sysops and sysop wannabes.

If one does not comply with the technical specs there is every chance that one's system will not be able to connect with others.

When applying for a node number/mail feed on has to comply with the requests of
the other party or it simply won't happen. You have NO bargaining power. They'll just tell you to "fuck off".

Michiel van der Vlist insists on all sysops following "the rules" - whatever those rules may be. He also has often stated his dislike
and distaste for P4, for reasons of his own.

And yet he still cpmplys with the technical requirements.

And yet they submit to its technical requirements ... or they cannot
connect.

Just because some technical requirements for making this network
work are noted in P4 does not make the document legally binding on
anyone.

NO - it makes it practically binding. You don't adhere to the tech specs then you don't connect.

And yet it is stated in P4 that wannabe sysops are compelled to
swear a loyalty oath to that piece of cyberjunk in order to become
a full-fledged sysop! What a crock of holy baloney!

If that is the requirement of the NC you're applying to then you have to
comply of they will not list you.

In Germany people used to have to swear a loyalty oath to Hitler
in order to survive. Should sysops have to do the same in order to
remain nodelisted? Should applicants be forced to do so in order
to appease the Hitler in charge of Fidonet?

Ask the NC you've selected to send your nodelisting request to what their particular requirements are. You'll still have to adhere to certain technical specs however or your connections won't happen.

That is what P4 says applicants have to do in order to even be
considered. Please tell me that makes sense.

Their sand pit you're trying to play in, their rules.
[...]

What that means is you have no legitimate authority to act
in any capacity as a representative for other sysops in Fidonet.
None at all.

And no obligation to list your system or communicate with it.

Thank God Trump lives in the Twitterverse rather than Fidonet.

Fidonet is about co-operation.

Cooperative anarchy. That is what Tom Jennings called it.

Another non-entity you're quoting. Jennings dropped out of FIdonet yonks ago.

Have you heard of this concept?

Hey. I give credit where credit is due. Tom Jennings said it first.

Your either co-operate with the others or you find you're limited to your
own sand pit and no more.

Tom Jennings did not say either/or.

He stated, quite clearly, cooperative anarchy.

That is two words.

And he no longer has any say in the Fidonet sand pit. You have to comply with the requests of today's nodelist clerks.

You see, all authority/power is vested in individual sysops.
And to date, they still maintain the right to refuse to allow
any and all others to usurp their own power/authority.

And those others can exert their right/powers not to allow their systems to
communicate with yours.

It is not either/or.

The term is cooperative anarchy.

When will you start cooperating?

cooperative - willing to work with others.

anarchy - a social structure without government or law and order.

Put the two together and what do you have? Fidonet!

Fidonet where we have to cooperate with others with regard to their technical specs - or it doesn't happen.

David D's definition stands unchanged.

But only on OUR OWN systems. We have no obligation to allow others to
connect with our little empires.

But oh so much more fun to play with everybody's toys rather
than just your own!

But be limited to only the node that will give you access. If you were nodelisted you would get direct access to all of the other systems - plus access to all of the secret "nodelisted sysop only" areas.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 9/11/2019 08:47, Lee Lofaso -> David Drummond wrote:

Most sysops do not have a clue as to how to have fun.

Fun is not so easy to define. One person's fun is another's hell.

Cyndi Lauper never had to explain her idea of fun to anybody.
And any guy who tells you her kind of fun is his kind of hell
would be either lying to your face or totally insane.

Does Cyndi Lauper do Fidonet?

Sysop is a technical term, troll is an behavioural observation.

Trolls just want to have fun.

And sysops are under no obligation to allow that "fun"

I would never deny Cyndi Lauper from having her kind of fun with me.

In Fidonet?

Sysops are jealous. Trolls get all the fun.

Some of us find censoring our others to be fun.

The right to free speech means nothing without the right to offend.

You have no such right in Fidonet.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

Hello Everybody,

He *loves* me! :)

--Lee

Nick Andre -> Lee Lofaso brought next idea :

On 07 Nov 19 01:31:47, Lee Lofaso said the following to Nick Andre:

Show me, fucknuts, where in P4 it states you have freedom of

speech.

Every sysop is lord and master over his/her own system.

Its momentarily interesting how we hear nothing from you and Bjorn for a short
while, and now the two of you appear to be chiming-in together, in unison. Messages from the both of you, within a short time.

I'm almost convinced you two are the same person, or more specifically a figment of Bjorn's imagination and its all just a gay masturbatory fantasy...
the writing styles are even getting to be the same elsewhere in other echoes.

I guarantee when Bjorn finally vanishes, you'll be gone; and if you're

not,

eventually you will be as you do not have the intelligence to survive without
a good thorough free-speech cocksuck from your significant other.

Enjoy your access while you can, eventually you'll be gone.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

--
We Make Your Wet Dreams Come True

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)