**************************************************************************** Date: 26 Nov 19 13:14:34
From: Ward Dossche
To: Terry Roati
...
PATH: 292/854 280/464 221/1 230/150 152 261/38 320/219 221/1 292/854 ****************************************************************************

Another Husky or Mystic system somewhere dropping SEEN-BY lines?

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - May 18 2020
* Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)

Hi Ward,

On 2020-06-04 09:23:57, you wrote to All:

@MSGID: 2:292/854 0c1d3d20 ***************************************************************************
Date: 26 Nov 19 13:14:34
From: Ward Dossche
To: Terry Roati
...
PATH: 292/854 280/464 221/1 230/150 152 261/38 320/219 221/1 292/854 ***************************************************************************

Another Husky or Mystic system somewhere dropping SEEN-BY lines?

Seems more like some kind of rescan took place. I got to "massive" dumps of older mail in the last couple of hours:

---------- Thu 2020-06-04 03:30:49, FMail-lnx64-2.1.0.18-Beta20170815 - Toss Summary
Board Area name #Msgs Dupes
----- -------------------------------------------------- ----- -----
JAM EARTH 221 0

Received from node #Msgs Dupes Sec V
------------------------ ----- ----- -----
2:221/0 234 16 0


---------- Thu 2020-06-04 07:38:02, FMail-lnx64-2.1.0.18-Beta20170815 - Toss Summary
Board Area name #Msgs Dupes
----- -------------------------------------------------- ----- -----
200 Bad messages 888
JAM EARTH 154 0

Received from node #Msgs Dupes Sec V
------------------------ ----- ----- -----
2:221/0 154 19 0

I've filtered and sorted the PATH lines from the messages in my BAD area:

@PATH: 102/127 153/757 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 103/705 218/700 261/38 230/150 152 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 120/302 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 123/140 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 123/256 116/18 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 129/125 266/512 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 153/757 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 154/50 322/0 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 218/530 700 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 221/1 203/0 154/10 3634/12 153/757 250 770/1 712/848 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 221/1 203/0 154/10 3634/12 153/7715 250 770/1 712/848 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 230/150 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 2320/105 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 250/1 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 250/5 1 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 261/1306 1 266/512 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 266/512 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 275/301 100 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 282/1031 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 292/854 280/464 221/1 230/150 152 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 317/3 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 322/756 0 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 340/400 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 640/1321 1384 280/5555 221/6 1 230/150 152 261/38 320/219 221/1

So all end in '320/219 221/1', so I suspect something went wrong between 320/219 and 221/1 ...?


Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Wilfred,

PATH: 292/854 280/464 221/1 230/150 152 261/38 320/219 221/1 292/854

Another Husky or Mystic system somewhere dropping SEEN-BY lines?

Seems more like some kind of rescan took place. I got to "massive" dumps
of older mail in the last couple of hours:

Just thinking of the known softwares having caused such events before.

Other than that, a rescan should only affect the system performing the rescan, not everybody else...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - May 18 2020
* Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)

04 Jun 20 09:40, Wilfred van Velzen wrote to Ward Dossche:

I've filtered and sorted the PATH lines from the messages in my BAD area:

@PATH: 102/127 153/757 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 103/705 218/700 261/38 230/150 152 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 120/302 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 123/140 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 123/256 116/18 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 129/125 266/512 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 153/757 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 154/50 322/0 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 218/530 700 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 221/1 203/0 154/10 3634/12 153/757 250 770/1 712/848 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 221/1 203/0 154/10 3634/12 153/7715 250 770/1 712/848 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 230/150 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 2320/105 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 250/1 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 250/5 1 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 261/1306 1 266/512 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 266/512 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 275/301 100 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 282/1031 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 292/854 280/464 221/1 230/150 152 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 317/3 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 322/756 0 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 340/400 261/38 320/219 221/1
@PATH: 640/1321 1384 280/5555 221/6 1 230/150 152 261/38 320/219 221/1

Nice :)

So all end in '320/219 221/1', so I suspect something went wrong between 320/219 and 221/1 ...?

Yep. There was a lot of unsent mail for me at 1:320/219. Andrew has just fixed a bug in his mbfido.

rcvd: 006300db.mo0 (5318792, 664849.00 CPS, 1:320/219@fidonet)
rcvd: 006300db.tu0 (5113716, 730530.86 CPS, 1:320/219@fidonet)
rcvd: 006300db.we0 (5344332, 763476.00 CPS, 1:320/219@fidonet)
rcvd: 006300db.th0 (5211737, 744533.86 CPS, 1:320/219@fidonet)
rcvd: 006300db.fr0 (5549281, 792754.43 CPS, 1:320/219@fidonet)
rcvd: 006300db.sa0 (4912474, 701782.00 CPS, 1:320/219@fidonet)
rcvd: 006300db.su1 (6094278, 761784.75 CPS, 1:320/219@fidonet)

'Tommi

---
* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi (2:221/1)

Hi Ward,

On 2020-06-04 10:34:35, you wrote to me:

PATH: 292/854 280/464 221/1 230/150 152 261/38 320/219 221/1

292/854

Another Husky or Mystic system somewhere dropping SEEN-BY lines?

Seems more like some kind of rescan took place. I got to "massive"
dumps of older mail in the last couple of hours:

Just thinking of the known softwares having caused such events before.

I can think of a couple more. ;)

Other than that, a rescan should only affect the system performing the rescan, not everybody else...

It should, but they often escape into the wild...

Anyway it was explained by Tommi what happend. None of the mentioned software was involved...

Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Hi Tommi,

On 2020-06-04 11:40:06, you wrote to me:

So all end in '320/219 221/1', so I suspect something went wrong
between 320/219 and 221/1 ...?

Yep. There was a lot of unsent mail for me at 1:320/219. Andrew has just fixed a bug in his mbfido.

Well, good that we have an explanation and that it is fixed!

Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Re: Re: Just got this ...
By: Ward Dossche to Wilfred van Velzen on Thu Jun 04 2020 10:34:35

Seems more like some kind of rescan took place. I got to "massive"
dumps of older mail in the last couple of hours:

Just thinking of the known softwares having caused such events before.

Other than that, a rescan should only affect the system performing
the rescan, not everybody else...

that depends on the mail tosser... some simply toss all mail to all links no matter if it were a rescan or not... this is one of the reasons why the ^aRESCAN control line was introduced but if a tosser doesn't know it, it cannot restrict its tossing activities based on it...


)\/(ark
--- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
* Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)

Wilfred,

I can think of a couple more. ;)

If bugs got fixed and stop bugging, then it doesn't count.

Anyway it was explained by Tommi what happend. None of the mentioned software was involved...

Indeed, it was even more painful.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - May 18 2020
* Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)

mark,

Other than that, a rescan should only affect the system performing ml>WD> the rescan, not everybody else...

that depends on the mail tosser... some simply toss all mail to all links no matter if it were a rescan or not...

For all intents and purposes, I would call that a bug.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - May 18 2020
* Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)

Re: Re: Just got this ...
By: Ward Dossche to mark lewis on Thu Jun 04 2020 14:19:02

Other than that, a rescan should only affect the system performing
the rescan, not everybody else...

that depends on the mail tosser... some simply toss all mail to all
links no matter if it were a rescan or not...

For all intents and purposes, I would call that a bug.

more of a design defect... but we must also remember that rescans came later and there was no indication of them having been done... also most systems were leaf nodes so rescans didn't really matter... the problem comes when a system feeding others does a rescan and doesn't know about or take the ^aRESCAN control line into account when tossing... this is all relatively new, though...


)\/(ark
--- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
* Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)

mark,

For all intents and purposes, I would call that a bug.

more of a design defect... but we must also remember that rescans came later and there was no indication of them having been done... also most systems were leaf nodes so rescans didn't really matter... the problem comes when a system feeding others does a rescan and doesn't know about
or take the ^aRESCAN control line into account when tossing... this is
all relatively new, though...

Do you have relatives in the Netherlands perhaps?

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - May 18 2020
* Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)

Re: Re: Just got this ...
By: Ward Dossche to mark lewis on Fri Jun 05 2020 09:23:13

For all intents and purposes, I would call that a bug.

more of a design defect... but we must also remember that rescans
came later and there was no indication of them having been done...
also most systems were leaf nodes so rescans didn't really
matter... the problem comes when a system feeding others does a
rescan and doesn't know about or take the ^aRESCAN control line
into account when tossing... this is all relatively new, though...

Do you have relatives in the Netherlands perhaps?

no... you're not the only target or reader in here, either... the reply was also intended for those just reading along who don't know how FTN distribution really works ;)


)\/(ark
--- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
* Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)

no... you're not the only target or reader in here, either... the reply was also intended for those just reading along who don't know how FTN distribution really works ;)

How incredible it may sound, considering how many years you have been in our FTN network, you still don't seem to understand the basic principles of our network.

There are still some operators that don't know how to work echomail distribution without taking it all converted into their BBS message base. As opposed to just keep it pass-thru.

Importing messages into your proprietary BBS message base, and then exporting it from that -- with all the bugs and mistakes the BBS software has -- is what causes all those huge mistakes.

As soon as EVERY ONE claiming to take part of FTN echo mail distribution, understands the importance of pass-thru, we will forever be ridden of those "bombs".




..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Re: Just got this ...
By: Bj�rn Felten to mark lewis on Fri Jun 05 2020 13:21:08

no... you're not the only target or reader in here, either...
the reply was also intended for those just reading along who
don't know how FTN distribution really works ;)

How incredible it may sound, considering how many years you
have been in our FTN network, you still don't seem to
understand the basic principles of our network.

i understand perfectly the basic principles of our network...

you should note that in the beginning of echomail, there was no concept of passthrough echomail areas... all mail was tossed into the local message base... then it was scanned out of the local message base to downlinks... it was not tossed to the local base and to downlinks at the same time... that came later when CPU speed, memory, and storage space increased...

later, offering the ability to rescan an area was a feature introduced by some tosser specifically to enable systems to back-fill and build their message bases... sure, perhaps the idea wasn't completely thought through but it is here and it is what it is... the addition of the ^aRESCAN control line was a later addition just like all other control lines that were originally added as kludges and later became standard control lines...


)\/(ark
--- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
* Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)

you should note that in the beginning of echomail, there was no concept
of passthrough echomail areas...

You should note that in the beginning, there wasn't even anything called echomail.

Now there is, and the concept of pass-thru is well documented and everyone worth his or her salt knows about it and how to use it.

So, once again: only the retards that still use their intermediate BBS message base, are causing those occurring mail bombs. Those of us using proper pass-thru FTN systems does not. DUH!

And yes, for historical reasons I still have a lot of R20 echoes stored in the ancient MSG format. They are possible to rescan, and has been from time to time. That mail bomb will only concern those that has not been added to the S-Bs after the last rescan, so I have a pretty good control of it. S-Bs has *not* been tampered with, as opposed to messages imported to my BBS message base (a BTrieve data base).


..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Re: Just got this ...
By: Bj�rn Felten to mark lewis on Fri Jun 05 2020 19:18:13

you should note that in the beginning of echomail, there was no
concept of passthrough echomail areas...

You should note that in the beginning, there wasn't even anything
called echomail.

nice miss you made there... i specifically said

"in the beginning of echomail"

:eyeroll:

good night, irene...


)\/(ark
--- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
* Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)

nice miss you made there... i specifically said

So you make a Trump, ignoring everything else I said. Figures...



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Re: Just got this ...
By: Bj�rn Felten to mark lewis on Fri Jun 05 2020 23:14:06

nice miss you made there... i specifically said

So you make a Trump, ignoring everything else I said. Figures...

you ignored mine first, mr trump ;)


)\/(ark
--- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
* Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)

you ignored mine first, mr trump ;)

Oh, I think i explained how pass-thru mail worked many decades before Bunker Baby appeared in the US world. Sorry that you obviously missed it...

See you around 150 days from now...




..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Re: Just got this ...
By: Bj�rn Felten to mark lewis on Sat Jun 06 2020 18:24:00

you ignored mine first, mr trump ;)

Oh, I think i explained how pass-thru mail worked many decades before Bunker Baby appeared in the US world. Sorry that you obviously missed it...

why are you such a jackass prick? i've been in fidonet as long or longer than you have... of course i know how passthrough mail works... i've used it since the beginning... whadda clod...


)\/(ark
--- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
* Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)

mark,

why are you such a jackass prick? i've been in fidonet as long or longer than you have... of course i know how passthrough mail works... i've used it since the beginning... whadda clod...

Bjorn shows up in the nodelist 8 years before you do ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - May 18 2020
* Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)

Bjorn shows up in the nodelist 8 years before you do ...

Why destroy a good myth with facts? 8-)




..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Re: Re: Just got this ...
By: Ward Dossche to mark lewis on Sat Jun 06 2020 20:39:46

why are you such a jackass prick? i've been in fidonet as long
or longer than you have... of course i know how passthrough mail
works... i've used it since the beginning... whadda clod...

Bjorn shows up in the nodelist 8 years before you do ...

the nodelist is a lie... and you can't count... the nodelist history site shows 3 years difference but you don't know the whole story, either... so have a seat and i'll tell it...

the Spirit of Support BBS in Virginia Beach, VA was my BBS being originally run out of my office at the computer place where i worked... the BBS was originally run off the demo version of wildcat and was available for callers after the store closed since we were using one of the store's phone lines... the idea was to have a BBS to support our clients... i left the company for several months to work 100% on a project for one of our clients... the company didn't want to touch that client's project but i was given the clear to do it if i wanted to... i completed their project and came back to the company after 3 to 6 months or so...

during this time, jim putt, one of our friends and customers, had taken an interest in the BBS... he was asked if he wanted to work on it while i was gone... he accepted and looked at several other BBS packages because wildcat just wasn't doing the job we had in mind... i think adam hudson's QuickBBS was in place when i came back... we both worked on the new system trying to get it working with a mail tosser but it was hell... netmail and echomail worked inbound or outbound but not going both directions... the configs were harsh to work with... the system was listed in the nodelist before we got echomail tossing and scanning to work completely... since netmail worked and that was all that was required to be listed we got listed... then jim found RemoteAccess BBS (v0.02 IIRC) and installed it... we set out to get mail tossing working on it... it was still a huge ugly mess to deal with... finally a new tosser package came out, IMail, IIRC, that just worked and didn't require juggling config files back and forth... that was when our system really got on the network even though we had been listed in the Z1 nodelist for a while by then...

policy 4 was posted in fidonews around this time (1987-1989)... jim and i talked about P4, how we thought it would be for the network, and how it might affect our BBS... we drank a lot of Bud Dry beer during these conversations... we decided that i would cast the vote for our BBS with our NC in the upcoming P4 process...

it was a year or more before our node finally appeared in the Z2 nodelist... i was in full swing in the RemoteAccess support areas answering questions left and right... one of our projects was another RA system running as a point system under DESQview using frontdoor before frontdoor was multinode capable... what was learned on this system was carried over to the Spirit of Support and it became a multinode BBS as well...

after some time, i left the company again and came back here to NC... i brought the RA point setup with me and set up my WPUSA system here... it took a few months to find a net that would list me but once one was found, i was right back in the RA areas providing the full support i had been providing before... i'm still here...

above i say "the nodelist is a lie"... this is because the archives are incomplete... the nodelist history site doesn't show the Spirit of Support until 1991 but we were certainly listed before P4 was voted on... after i left and came back to NC, jim attempted to keep the BBS running up there but life changed a lot for him during that time... when i left, i lost track of everyone... especially over the months it took me to find a net and get my system listed... that mainly because all the existing nets in this neck of the woods were long distance... i was finally able to get net3634 to give me a listing and i did all the polling for mail so they didn't have to foot the bill for in-state LD... all my echos were pulled out of texas or louisiana at 2400... net3634 was mainly military personel so there was a lot of churn as folks were stationed into and out of fort bragg and pope afb... as time went on, i was given the NC hat and i'm still wearing it since ~1997... today, net3634 covers all of NC and i've also donned the R18C hat...

what i see in the nodelist history site is that BF didn't appear in the nodelist until 1989... P4 was ratified in June of '89, the same month that BF appears in the nodelist... our nodelisting was in place in the Z1 nodelist before P4 was ratified... we had to be listed to cast our vote on P4... on 21 Sep 1987, a complete copy of a P4 proposal was included in the fidonews archive... then neil curtain posted a P4 Draft in the fidonews in 25 Jan 1988... somewhere in this period is where we, jim and i, started discussing P4... so there's roughly a one year period in which i was involved with fidonet before BF came along and before P4 was ratified... there's no doubt that we were listed before P4... that's a fact...


)\/(ark
--- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
* Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)

Re: Just got this ...
By: Bj�rn Felten to Ward Dossche on Sat Jun 06 2020 23:17:38

Bjorn shows up in the nodelist 8 years before you do ...

Why destroy a good myth with facts? 8-)

because the myth and the given facts are wrong and incomplete...


)\/(ark
--- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
* Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)

so have a seat and i'll tell it...

The man doth protest too much, methinks.



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Re: Just got this ...
By: Bj�rn Felten to mark lewis on Sun Jun 07 2020 00:01:42

so have a seat and i'll tell it...

The man doth protest too much, methinks.

no clue what you're talking about... neither ward or myself were protesting anything... i provided more facts about my involvement with fidonet that you and others had no clue about :shrug:


)\/(ark
--- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
* Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)

mark,

Why destroy a good myth with facts? 8-)

because the myth and the given facts are wrong and incomplete...

That sounds like Trump would put it...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - May 18 2020
* Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)

so have a seat and i'll tell it...

The man doth protest too much, methinks.

Pearls for the swine I fear ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - May 18 2020
* Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)

mark,

no clue what you're talking about... neither ward or myself were
protesting anything... i provided more facts about my involvement with fidonet that you and others had no clue about :shrug:

Unverifiable "hearsay" does not constitute "fact".

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - May 18 2020
* Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)

The man doth protest too much, methinks.

Pearls for the swine I fear ...

LOL! Yeah, it's not for everyone to know our classics. 8-)




..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)