Hello Everybody,

Yesterday, US President Joe Biden has told Russian President
Vladimir Putin where to go. In June, this is where Garry Kasparov
told Russian President Vladimir Putin to go -

"Why should Putin have a say on Ukraine joining NATO, or anyone
else doing so? It's a sovereign nation and much Ukrainian blood
has been spilled since Putin invaded, spilled to defend the
values NATO supposedly represents."
~ Garry Kasparov, June 16, 2021 Twitter

I never knew Vladimir Putin had any veto power over other
countries. Especially countries in Europe and North America.
But then, Vladimir Putin has also never been known to play
chess. At least, not on the same level as Garry Kasparov.

Perhaps the Russian people should elect Garry Kasparov as
President of Russia, and allow Vladimir Putin to challenge
Magnus Carlsen for the World Chess Championship? It seems
the current challenger is falling apart, having lost the
last three out of four games, and may not even make it to
the end ...

"Chess is a blood sport." ~Garry Kasparov

--Lee

--
The people! Unite! Will never be defeated!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello, Lee!

Thursday December 09 2021 20:21, you wrote to ALL:

Perhaps the Russian people should elect Garry Kasparov as
President of Russia, and allow Vladimir Putin to challenge
Magnus Carlsen for the World Chess Championship? It seems
the current challenger is falling apart, having lost the
last three out of four games, and may not even make it to
the end ...

Let me remember that during WWII Sweden allowed Nazis to transfer troops across its territory to fight in Russia. No one elected anyone to stop them.


Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Let me remember that during WWII Sweden allowed Nazis to transfer troops across its territory to fight in Russia. No one elected anyone to stop them.

Why would anyone stop them? Sweden was expected to be neutral.



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello, Lee!

Hello Everybody,

Yesterday, US President Joe Biden has told Russian President
Vladimir Putin where to go. In June, this is where Garry Kasparov
told Russian President Vladimir Putin to go -

"Why should Putin have a say on Ukraine joining NATO, or anyone
else doing so? It's a sovereign nation and much Ukrainian blood
has been spilled since Putin invaded, spilled to defend the
values NATO supposedly represents."
~ Garry Kasparov, June 16, 2021 Twitter

This conflict (which they say will happen in january) is about Ukraine trying to reestablish its control in Donbass region. There is a strong possibility that NATO countries will not come to Ukraine's aid. The same allready happened in 2008 in Georgia. Ukraine will have to deal by itself with Russia. And those sanctions mentioned by Biden do not scare Putin. If Putin decides to invade Ukraine, the only help ukrainians will get are weapons bought from US and sanctions, exclusion of Russia from the SWIFT international payment. But that's all. NATO will not fight a war for Ukraine.

Ghil.

---
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

Ghil,

NATO will not fight a war for Ukraine.

Measuring the size of penises is never a good idea...that goes both ways.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Dec 5 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, Bj�rn!

Friday December 10 2021 00:14, you wrote to me:

Let me remember that during WWII Sweden allowed Nazis to transfer
troops across its territory to fight in Russia. No one elected
anyone to stop them.

Why would anyone stop them? Sweden was expected to be neutral.

"It's like: I am ready to give ride to a maniac who is going to kill and rape my neighbor. I am so proud of me."

Sounds very neutral?

Best regards,
dp.
--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Let me remember that during WWII Sweden allowed Nazis to transfer
troops across its territory to fight in Russia. No one elected anyone BF>DP> to stop them.

Why would anyone stop them? Sweden was expected to be neutral.

Neutrality, in my book, is explained different.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Dec 5 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

"It's like: I am ready to give ride to a maniac who is going to kill and rape my neighbor. I am so proud of me."

Sounds very neutral?

What two opposing sides would that be neutral to?




..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Why would anyone stop them? Sweden was expected to be neutral.

Neutrality, in my book, is explained different.

So, in your book, how should a neutral country act in that infamous situation? Wouldn't not allowing the transport be an obvious way to demonstrate siding with the Allies against the Axis?



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Why would anyone stop them? Sweden was expected to be neutral.

Neutrality, in my book, is explained different.

So, in your book, how should a neutral country act in that infamous situation? Wouldn't not allowing the transport be an obvious way to demonstrate siding with the Allies against the Axis?

A double negative ... oh dear ... ;-)

There's an obvious difference between 'neutrality' and 'staying out of the war' ... Sweden was confronted with a dilema either comply with the Nazi request or become at least partially occupied ... a situation which it tries itself to talk out of ever since.

And we haven't yet touched upon collaboration ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Dec 5 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

a situation which it tries itself to talk out of ever since.

Well, we posed no restrictions on who could use our public transportations. How does that differ from e.g. allowing black people from using white peoples transportation?

Maybe you don't know that Sweden also allowed US bombers to not only pass Swedish airspace, but even were taken care of when they (more than 160 of them) were forced to make an emergency landing here after they'd been crippled by German air defence, and some 1400 US airmen were taken care of.

By the rules of Sweden's neutrality, the planes and their crews were interned. Early in the war this was not a problem as Allied and German personnel were generally returned on a one-for-one basis. But as the war progressed, a far greater number of Allied planes and crews ended up in Sweden, and they were forced to remain there.

..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Wouldn't not allowing the transport be an obvious way to
demonstrate siding with the Allies against the Axis?

A double negative ... oh dear ... ;-)

I may seem so at a casual glance, but actually not. The negatives are at two different levels.



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

a situation which it tries itself to talk out of ever since.

Well, we posed no restrictions on who could use our public
transportations. How does that differ from e.g. allowing black people
from using white peoples transportation?

As you correctly quoted above, a situation which Sweden has been trying to talk itself out of for the past 76.5 years.

Sweden provided the locomotives, the cars and the personel that were used to transport those Nazi troops. Sweden also provided the cargo ships which transported Swedish ore for the German ball-bearing factories after it stopped selling full-ready high-quality ball-bearings to the Nazis ... under mounting Allied pressure. The idea was to prevent Allied submarines from attacking 'neutral' ships ... this did not work well from some point on.

War is good for business, it is now and it was then as well. Sweden made a good buck from it.

Maybe you don't know that Sweden also allowed US bombers to not only
pass Swedish airspace, but even were taken care of when they (more than
160 of them) were forced to make an emergency landing here after they'd been crippled by German air defence, and some 1400 US airmen were taken care of.

That is common knowledge and universal practice... the crew of the Graf Spee were also detained in Argentina for the remainder of the war. The US seized several Italian and German vessels in US ports and the Panama Canal, even if the crews were not enemy combatants they were interned even before war was declared between the US and Axis powers ... the crew of the Conte Biancamano was sent to Missoula Montana for internment, the camp is still there ... read a lot about those internments... in the 1970/80s talked to many of the surviving internees (many of whom became US citizens) .... Interning people under those circumstances is nothing else but applying the Geneva Convention. Not an exceptional feat by Sweden.

By the rules of Sweden's neutrality, the planes and their crews were interned. Early in the war this was not a problem as Allied and German personnel were generally returned on a one-for-one basis. But as the war progressed, a far greater number of Allied planes and crews ended up in Sweden, and they were forced to remain there.

It does not explain why Sweden did not intern the slightly more than 2 million Nazi soldiers transiting through its territory .... they would also fall under the Swedish neutrality clauses ... these soldiers should have been interned until the end of the war as well.

Probably this would have advanced the end of hostilities in the European theatre by many months ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Dec 5 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello Ghil,

Yesterday, US President Joe Biden has told Russian President
Vladimir Putin where to go. In June, this is where Garry Kasparov
told Russian President Vladimir Putin to go -

"Why should Putin have a say on Ukraine joining NATO, or anyone
else doing so? It's a sovereign nation and much Ukrainian blood
has been spilled since Putin invaded, spilled to defend the
values NATO supposedly represents."
~ Garry Kasparov, June 16, 2021 Twitter

This conflict (which they say will happen in january) is about Ukraine trying to reestablish its control in Donbass region.

Most of the people in that region speak Russian as their native
language, and culturally align themselves as such.

There is a strong possibility that NATO countries will not come to Ukraine's
aid.

NATO countries are only obliged to come to the aid of member countries
that have been attacked. Ukraine is not a member of NATO. Even though
it may wish to become a member of NATO, as stated in its constitution.

The same allready happened in 2008 in Georgia.

Georgia is not a member of NATO.

Ukraine will have to deal by itself with Russia.

The president of Ukraine lost his majority in Parliament.
Elections are to be held next year. Why would Putin want to
invade a country that is likely to elect a new president,
and a parliament, that wants more friendly relations with
Russia?

And those sanctions mentioned by Biden do not scare Putin.

Some sanctions have already been imposed on Russia due to its
invasion and annexation of the Crimean region of Ukraine. This
has had some effect on the Russian economy. But there are ways
those sanctions can (and should) be lifted.

What Biden has done is to remind Putin that more sanctions can
and will be imposed - if an actual invasion takes place. This has
bought some time (two or three months) for all sides to realize
that their own actions have consequenses.

Continued next message.

--Lee

--
Change Is Cumming

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Ghil,

[..]

If Putin decides to invade Ukraine, the only help ukrainians will get are weapons bought from US and sanctions, exclusion of Russia from the SWIFT international payment.

Putin knows war with Ukraine would be bad for everyone - Russia,
Ukraine, the EU, and the USA. So why would he want to invade? He
knows such a war would last less than an hour, but the cost would
be devastating (for all sides). So that is not his game.

The president of Ukraine has lost his majority in parliament.
There are new elections scheduled for next year. How much nicer
it would be for Putin to be able to negotiate with a Ukraine
that is far more friendly to Russia than who is in charge now.

Putin can get everything he wants, without ever firing a shot,
or having new sanctions placed on Russia. So why go to war when
you don't have to?

Of course, I may be wrong, having lost all my marbles.

But that's all. NATO will not fight a war for Ukraine.

Why would any member of NATO want to fight a war for Ukraine?
It is of no national security importance to the USA. Maybe to
Russia, as Ukraine is a border state. But even then, not much
of a threat to Russia.

The question Kasparov raised is "Why should Putin have any
say on NATO's future expansion?"

Ukraine has embedded a clause in its constitution its wish to
become a member of NATO. Does that mean that Vladimir Putin, or
any other leader, has a veto over what Ukraine wants?

--Lee

--
Big Or Small We Lay Them All

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello, Lee!

The president of Ukraine has lost his majority in parliament.
There are new elections scheduled for next year. How much nicer
it would be for Putin to be able to negotiate with a Ukraine
that is far more friendly to Russia than who is in charge now.

Putin can get everything he wants, without ever firing a shot,
or having new sanctions placed on Russia. So why go to war when
you don't have to?

Ukraine plans to take back Donbass in january with this president. There are 150.000 troops at the border with the unrecognised republics. They will try to reestablish the territorial integrity. It's their right. Do you think Putin will just watch this?

Ghil.

---
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

Hello, Lee!

The question Kasparov raised is "Why should Putin have any
say on NATO's future expansion?"

If Ukraine will be a member of NATO then all countries in this alliance have to come to Ukraine's aid. If Ukraine accuses Russia of supporting the separatists and all those countries support Ukraine's territorial integrity (including Crimeea as part of Ukraine), they will have to come to Ukraine's aid in case of a war with Russia. That's why Ukraine will never be accepted to NATO until it reestablishes its territorial integrity. So Ukraine first has to reconquer all its lost lands. Then it will be accepted in NATO.

Ghil.
---
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

Sweden also provided the cargo ships which transported Swedish ore for
the German ball-bearing factories

40% of the Swedish ore went to Germany, 60% went to England. Yes, not exactly neutral, but very close.

How much of the Belgian ore went to England?

And, speaking of neutrality, Switzerland also claimed to be neutral, look what happened to all the Nazi "spoils of war" that still is unaccounted for in Swiss banks. How does that compare to the Swedish transit allowance?

And no, I don't think that allowing the Germans to send soldiers through Sweden to Russia prolonged the war. On the contrary, haven't we all agreed that the eastern front was what eventually caused the war to end? If all those German soldiers hadn't been sent to Russia, they may have been left on the western front...



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

�������ࠧ�� �ਢ������!

Putin can get everything he wants, without ever firing a shot, or
having new sanctions placed on Russia. So why go to war when you
don't have to?

Ukraine plans to take back Donbass in january with this president.
There are 150.000 troops at the border with the unrecognised
republics. They will try to reestablish the territorial integrity.
It's their right. Do you think Putin will just watch this?

Putin is a military intelligence officer. He will never start a war. He can only pretend that there is no war, and again send troops so that "no one can see."

--
����᪨� ����. ��७�� ���, Vladimir Fyodorov, �᪢���.
... �ய��� ������? ������� ������!
--- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
* Origin: Esquire Station (2:6035/3.2)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, Bj�rn!

Saturday December 11 2021 07:57, you wrote to me:

"It's like: I am ready to give ride to a maniac who is going to
kill and rape my neighbor. I am so proud of me."

Sounds very neutral?

What two opposing sides would that be neutral to?

Neutral in our universe means "I am too weak to defend myself", nothing else.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Bjorn,

40% of the Swedish ore went to Germany, 60% went to England. Yes, not exactly neutral, but very close.

I cannot find a reference about 60% of Swedish ore production during WW2 going to England. Unless you can provide that I won't believe it. The port of Narvik was controled by the Nazis and they would allow ore shipments to England? How plausible is that?

How much of the Belgian ore went to England?

Roy Witt passed away 6+ years ago.

And, speaking of neutrality, Switzerland also claimed to be neutral,...

Switzerland is always on the side of the money, they were the clearing house for Nazi payments to for example IBM for their tabulating machines which made the trains run, also the ones to Auschwitz, and because of the census in the 1930s made it easy to track down every jew. For that machines were needed, parts and computer punched cards of which the only quality reliable source was in the US. All that was shipped with neutral vessels to Sweden ... Sweden was paid well.

War is good for business, then and also now.

look what happened to all the Nazi "spoils of war" that still is unaccounted for in Swiss banks. How does that compare to the Swedish transit allowance?

... Roy Witt ...

And no, I don't think that allowing the Germans to send soldiers
through Sweden to Russia prolonged the war. On the contrary, haven't we
all agreed that the eastern front was what eventually caused the war to end? If all those German soldiers hadn't been sent to Russia, they may
have been left on the western front...

The shipments of soldiers were a non-event ... slightly over a million were shipped to Norway, and slightly over a million were shipped back. Nevertheless, every German soldier should have been interned alongside those 1400 Allied pilots and air crew.

Had those 2 million be taken out of the equation the war in the European theatre would have been vastly different. It equals 56 divisions.

Forget it Bjorn, Sweden is already 76 years trying to talk itself out of this...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Dec 5 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

On 12/12/2021 03:16, Lee Lofaso : Ghil Zvidgzul wrote:

 GZ>> And those sanctions mentioned by Biden do not scare Putin.

Some sanctions have already been imposed on Russia due to its
invasion and annexation of the Crimean region of Ukraine.

Did not the Crimean people hold a referendum and choose to align with Russia (considering that they are of Russian culture)?

--
Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbi
* Origin: Bucca, Qld (3:640/305)

Forget it Bjorn, Sweden is already 76 years trying to talk itself out of this...

Bj�rn to you, please.

But yes, lets forget it. It all happened long before I was even a horny glimpse in my fathers eye, and I sincerely believe in non-patriotism (after religion the second major reason for wars).

All I can say is that I applaud every possible way to stay out of the conflicts that kings and presidents have between them, convincing gullible citizens to go out and fight it out for them.



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Bj�rn,

Sweden also provided the cargo ships which transported Swedish ore for
the German ball-bearing factories

40% of the Swedish ore went to Germany, 60% went to England. Yes, not exactly neutral, but very close.

Switzerland was neutral. A haven for art lovers.

How much of the Belgian ore went to England?

How much treasure went to Turkey, which was also neutral?

And, speaking of neutrality, Switzerland also claimed to be neutral, look what happened to all the Nazi "spoils of war" that still is unaccounted for
in Swiss banks. How does that compare to the Swedish transit allowance?

Hitler never invaded Switzerland or Turkey. And left Ireland alone.

And no, I don't think that allowing the Germans to send soldiers through Sweden to Russia prolonged the war. On the contrary, haven't we all agreed that the eastern front was what eventually caused the war to end? If all those German soldiers hadn't been sent to Russia, they may have been left on the western front...

Ireland was neutral. But nobody wants to admit it.

--Lee

--
Say it loud! Say it clear! / Refugees are welcome here!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Ghil,

The question Kasparov raised is "Why should Putin have any
say on NATO's future expansion?"

If Ukraine will be a member of NATO then all countries in this alliance have
to come to Ukraine's aid.

On 9/11/2001 the USA was attacked by terrorists. The USA blamed
al-Qaeda, and claimed the Taliban in Afghanistan was responsible
because it was protecting them. So the USA asked NATO members to
come to its aid in order to bring to justice those responsible.
It took the USA some 20 years to accomplish its task.

If Ukraine accuses Russia of supporting the separatists and all those countries support Ukraine's territorial integrity (including Crimeea as part of Ukraine), they will have to come to Ukraine's aid in case of a war with Russia.

The Taliban was willing to put Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda on trial,
under Sharia law. But the USA rejected the deal. Who is going to put
Russia on trial, and under what law? Nobody bothered putting the
Taliban on trial. Nobody put Osama bin Laden on trial, either. And
the Taliban are still there, in Afghanistan.

That's why Ukraine will never be accepted to NATO until it reestablishes its
territorial integrity.

It may be that NATO will never accept Ukraine as a member. But it
will never say that. I doubt it will ever put the matter to a vote.
Far better to table the motion, and let it stay buried never to be
brought up again ...

So Ukraine first has to reconquer all its lost lands.

What lost lands? Crimea remains a part of Ukraine, same as it has
for centuries ...

Then it will be accepted in NATO.

Somebody has to remind Ukraine about what was agreed upon at Minsk ...

--Lee

--
If PBS won't do it, who will?

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Ghil,

The president of Ukraine has lost his majority in parliament.
There are new elections scheduled for next year. How much nicer
it would be for Putin to be able to negotiate with a Ukraine
that is far more friendly to Russia than who is in charge now.

Putin can get everything he wants, without ever firing a shot,
or having new sanctions placed on Russia. So why go to war when
you don't have to?

Ukraine plans to take back Donbass in january with this president.

Putin is reminding Ukraine's president that Russia has the means
and the capability of invading his entire country within a very short
period of time. Not that invasion is imminent.

There are 150.000 troops at the border with the unrecognised republics.

Russia has a population of 160 million people, with a sizeable
military, including thousands of nukes. Ukraine has a population
of 45 million people, a much smaller military, and no nukes. How
long will it take the Russian military to overtake the Ukraine
military in a full-scale assault? Probably less than a hour.
And that is with no nukes launched.

The problem is, even a full-scale invasion does not mean
subjugation of a people. It would become a war of attrition,
with partisans continuing the fight forever. Kind of like
another Afghanistan, only in Europe.

They will try to reestablish the territorial integrity. It's their right. Do
you think Putin will just watch this?

A people identify themselves by their language, regardless of
geographical location. For example, the Cajun people were here
(in Louisiana) before the USA even existed. Even today, the
Cajun people retain their own unique way of life, speaking
French rather than English, and continue the same traditions
as before.

The same with Ukraine. Those who are culturally Russian will
continue their ways, regardless of their geographical location.
That is why so many in Crimea could accept being part of Russia,
even with objection by Ukraine.

Is culture a part of society? Or is society a part of culture?
In my view, a society tries to impose its will on a culture, but
can never fully close the deal. The Cajun culture existed before
there was a USA, and the Cajun culture will continue after the
USA ceases to exist. The same is true of any other culture.

--Lee

--
My body, my choice! / Her body, her choice!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 12-11-21 18:16, Lee Lofaso <=-
spoke to Ghil Zvidgzul about Kasparov on Ukraine <=-

Most of the people in that region speak Russian as their native
language, and culturally align themselves as such.

SO? Most of the people in southern Texas speak Spanish as their native language, and are aligned with Hispanic culture. Does that imply that
Mexico should have the right to annex southern Texas??

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked in Silver Spring, Maryland. 00:17:43, 12 Dec 2021
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

SO? Most of the people in southern Texas speak Spanish as their native language, and are aligned with Hispanic culture. Does that imply that Mexico should have the right to annex southern Texas??

As Texas was stolen by military force ... Yes, Mexico has all the rights ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Dec 5 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Bj�rn to you, please.

I would love to comply but no idea how I must produce this.

But yes, lets forget it. It all happened long before I was even a
horny glimpse in my fathers eye, and I sincerely believe in
non-patriotism (after religion the second major reason for wars).

100%.

Current generations should not be burdened with guilt about what happened generations ago. Today's generation Germans are citizens of a respected neighbour state, today's generation Belgians are horified about what happened in the Congo in their name and there are a tonne of similar comparisons (although that's a linguistic abomination).

And I do think that the wealth of our royal family which was aquired by slave-labour in the Congo, should be confiscated and returned to that country as develepment aid, not as a gift to Tshisekedi.

All I can say is that I applaud every possible way to stay out of the conflicts that kings and presidents have between them, convincing
gullible citizens to go out and fight it out for them.

100%.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Dec 5 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello Ward,

SO? Most of the people in southern Texas speak Spanish as their native
language, and are aligned with Hispanic culture. Does that imply that
Mexico should have the right to annex southern Texas??

As Texas was stolen by military force ... Yes, Mexico has all the rights ...

As Crimea was stolen by military force ...
Yes, Ukraine has all the rights ...

--Lee

--
As good as it looks

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Dale,

Most of the people in that region speak Russian as their native
language, and culturally align themselves as such.

SO? Most of the people in southern Texas speak Spanish as their native language, and are aligned with Hispanic culture. Does that imply that Mexico should have the right to annex southern Texas??

Why not? This country annexed half of Mexico. And then told all
its new citizens they had to speak English. It also did the same
with Cajuns, who were here before there was a USA, forcing us
to adopt its ways and language.

Point is, a people define themselves by language, not by race
or any other criteria. Hispanics identify themselves by language,
the same as Cajuns. And yet the Bureau of the Census has two
questions on its survey for Hispanics to answer - both questions
about race. Notice that same survey only applies to Hispanics
and not Cajuns or any other group.

What should we call inhabitants of Texas? Seems to me Texicans
would be a better term. Regardless of whatever race they happen
to be.

--Lee

--
Hey hey! Ho ho! Donald Trump has got to go!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Dmitry,

"It's like: I am ready to give ride to a maniac who is going to
kill and rape my neighbor. I am so proud of me."

Sounds very neutral?

What two opposing sides would that be neutral to?

Neutral in our universe means "I am too weak to defend myself", nothing else.

Hitler was scared to death of Switzerland. He was also scared
to death of Turkey. Which is one of the reasons why he never attacked
either country. He also never attacked Ireland. But that was only
because he thought Michael Collins was still causing "the troubles"
for everyone.

--Lee

--
Often Licked, Never Beaten

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

As Texas was stolen by military force ... Yes, Mexico has all the

rights ...

As Crimea was stolen by military force ...
Yes, Ukraine has all the rights ...

It's a bit as in shipping ... a boat coming from the right has the right of way ... but it's not a good idea to challenge a vessel approaching from the left which has a higher tonnage ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Dec 5 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello Ward,

As Texas was stolen by military force ... Yes, Mexico has all the

rights ...

As Crimea was stolen by military force ...
Yes, Ukraine has all the rights ...

It's a bit as in shipping ... a boat coming from the right has the right of
way ... but it's not a good idea to challenge a vessel approaching from the
left which has a higher tonnage ...

Jefferson Davis, first and last President of the Confederate States
of America, was a war hero. Due to his actions, Mexicans were finally
free to do as they please in the land of plenty, and call that land
their new home.

Many people do not realize how much land was stolen from Mexico.
It was not just a small area. Imagine Mexico being twice the size
of what it is now. That is a lot of land. This is about the same
size as Alaska, or maybe a bit more. At least the Russians got
some compensation in return for selling Alaska.

What happened to Jefferson Davis after he captured all that land
for the USA? He was later arrested, but never tried or convicted,
then later released, for reasons nobody has been able to figure
out, and died penniless in New Orleans.

That is how we treat our war heroes.

--Lee

--
Because not everyone likes licorice

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 12/12/2021 00:15, Dale Shipp : Lee Lofaso wrote:

 LL>> Most of the people in that region speak Russian as their native
 LL>> language, and culturally align themselves as such.

SO?  Most of the people in southern Texas speak Spanish as their native language, and are aligned with Hispanic culture.  Does that imply that Mexico should have the right to annex southern Texas??

Isn't democracy about what the people want?


--
Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbi
* Origin: Bucca, Qld (3:640/305)

On 13/12/2021 07:12, Lee Lofaso : Ward Dossche wrote:

Hello Ward,

 DS>>> SO?  Most of the people in southern Texas speak Spanish as their

native

 DS>>> language, and are aligned with Hispanic culture.  Does that imply

that

 DS>>> Mexico should have the right to annex southern Texas??

 WD>> As Texas was stolen by military force ... Yes, Mexico has all the

rights ...

As Crimea was stolen by military force ...
Yes, Ukraine has all the rights ...

Are yo sure? What about the referendum voted on by the peoples of Crimes?


--
Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbi
* Origin: Bucca, Qld (3:640/305)

Hi, Lee!

12 ��� 21 22:12, Lee Lofaso -> Ward Dossche:

As Crimea was stolen by military force ...

Crimea seceded from Ukraine in full compliance with Ukrainian and international law. For several days Crimea existed as an independent state, after which it was admitted to the Russian Federation.

Yes, Ukraine has all the rights ...

No any... Thank God.

Have nice nights.
Stas Mishchenkov.

--- �� �⪫��뢠� ��ﭪ� �� �����, � ᥪ� �� ������.
* Origin: Lame Users Breeding. Simferopol, Crimea. (2:460/5858)

Hello, Stas!

Crimea seceded from Ukraine in full compliance with Ukrainian and international law.

From the perspective of international law Crimea still belongs to Ukraine. And Russia used military force to take control of the peninsula and to force Ukrainian troops not to intervene in the process of secession.

Ghil.
---
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

*** �⢥� �� ᮮ�饭�� �� _Carbon.Mail (Carbon.Mail).

Hi, Ghil!

15 ��� 21 04:53, Ghil Zvidgzul -> Stas Mishchenkov:

From the perspective of international law Crimea still belongs to
Ukraine.

Crimea was an autonomous republic with a corresponding right of self-determination, and it used one. What's wrong? Tell me what specific law has been broken?

And Russia used military force to take control of the peninsula and to force Ukrainian troops not to intervene in the process of secession.

This is just a dirty lie! A bull shit, in other words.

Have nice nights.
Stas Mishchenkov.

--- ���� �뢠�� ������饩 ��� � ��⮢� �����⨥�.
* Origin: Lame Users Breeding. Simferopol, Crimea. (2:460/5858)

*** �⢥� �� ᮮ�饭�� �� _Carbon.Mail (Carbon.Mail).

Hi, Ghil!

15 ��� 21 04:53, Ghil Zvidgzul -> Stas Mishchenkov:

And Russia used military force to take control of the peninsula and to force Ukrainian troops not to intervene in the process of secession.

And these "heroes" rushed in united ranks to join the Russian army. ;)

Have nice nights.
Stas Mishchenkov.

--- ����஥��� �뫮 ���⮫쪮 �७���, �� ���� ��祭� �।������ �믨��.
* Origin: Lame Users Breeding. Simferopol, Crimea. (2:460/5858)

Hello, Stas!

From the perspective of international law Crimea still belongs to
Ukraine.

Crimea was an autonomous republic with a corresponding right of self-determination, and it used one. What's wrong? Tell me what
specific law has been broken?

The UN Charter, all bilateral international treaties concluded between Russia and Ukraine were violated.
And yes, Putin admited he sent troops to Crimea.

Ghil.
---
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

And yes, Putin admited he sent troops to Crimea.

So, he also has relatives in the Netherlands?

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Dec 5 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello David,

[..]

As Crimea was stolen by military force ...
Yes, Ukraine has all the rights ...

Are yo sure? What about the referendum voted on by the peoples of Crimes?

What about the Supreme Soviet declaring Crimea as belonging to Ukraine?
Pravda wrote about this on February 27, 1954. That's right. The Supreme
Soviet approved Nikita Krushchev's action, making millions of Russians
instant citizens of Ukraine. Without ever having the chance to have a
vote of their own.

--Lee

--
There's no split in Cremo.

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)

Hello Stas,

As Crimea was stolen by military force ...

Crimea seceded from Ukraine in full compliance with Ukrainian and
international law. For several days Crimea existed as an independent state, after which it was admitted to the Russian Federation.

"Decree of the Presidium of the USSR Supreme Soviet transferring Crimea Province from the Russian Republic to the Ukraine Republic, taking into
account the integral character of the economy, the territorial proximity
and the close economic ties between Crimea Province and the Ukraine
Republic, and approving the joint presentation of the Presidium of the
Russian Republic Supreme Soviet and the Presidium of the Ukraine
Republic Supreme Soviet on the transfer of Crimea Province from the
Russian Republic to the Ukraine Republic."
~ Pravda, February 27, 1954

Thank you, Nikita Khrushchev. :)

Yes, Ukraine has all the rights ...

No any... Thank God.

Cardinal rule of politics -

Once you give something away, you can't take it back.

Yes, Ukraine has all the rights ...

No any... Thank God.

Well, Krushchev at least *tried* to give something away ...

--Lee

--
We're Great In Bed

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)

On 17/12/2021 00:57, Lee Lofaso : David Drummond wrote:

Hello David,

As Crimea was stolen by military force ...
Yes, Ukraine has all the rights ...

Are yo sure? What about the referendum voted on by the peoples of Crimes?

What about the Supreme Soviet declaring Crimea as belonging to Ukraine? Pravda wrote about this on February 27, 1954. That's right. The Supreme Soviet approved Nikita Krushchev's action, making millions of Russians instant citizens of Ukraine. Without ever having the chance to have a
vote of their own.

And the peoples of Crimea chose to rescind that and return to Russian administration.

--
Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbi
* Origin: Bucca, Qld (3:640/305)

On 17/12/2021 00:57, Lee Lofaso : Stas Mishchenkov wrote:

Cardinal rule of politics -

Once you give something away, you can't take it back.

A rule of whose politics?

It would appear that over the millennia places/resources have swapped hands many times. Sometimes voluntarily, sometimes not so.

--
Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbi
* Origin: Bucca, Qld (3:640/305)

Hi, Ghil!

15 ��� 21 16:19, Ghil Zvidgzul -> Stas Mishchenkov:

Crimea was an autonomous republic with a corresponding right of

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

self-determination, and it used one. What's wrong? Tell me what

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

specific law has been broken?

The UN Charter, all bilateral international treaties concluded between Russia and Ukraine were violated.

How does the withdrawal of Crimea from Ukraine violate its treaties with Russia?

And yes, Putin admited he sent troops to Crimea.

;)

Have nice nights.
Stas Mishchenkov.

--- ��뤭� �뢠�� ⮫쪮 �� �, �� �������. ��������.
* Origin: Lame Users Breeding. Simferopol, Crimea. (2:460/5858)

Hi, Lee!

16 ��� 21 16:57, Lee Lofaso -> David Drummond:

As Crimea was stolen by military force ...
Yes, Ukraine has all the rights ...

Are yo sure? What about the referendum voted on by the peoples of Crimes?

What about the Supreme Soviet declaring Crimea as belonging to Ukraine? Pravda wrote about this on February 27, 1954. That's right. The Supreme Soviet approved Nikita Krushchev's action, making millions of Russians instant citizens of Ukraine. Without ever having the chance to have a
vote of their own.

Moreover, when they did manage to vote in the referendum on January 20, 1991, the results were ignored and Crimea remained as a part of Ukraine.

Have nice nights.
Stas Mishchenkov.

--- �᫨ ��� �� ����� �� ����� �஭�, �����頩��� � ��୮� �����.
* Origin: Lame Users Breeding. Simferopol, Crimea. (2:460/5858)

Hi, David!

17 ��� 21 06:10, David Drummond -> Lee Lofaso:

And the peoples of Crimea chose to rescind that and return to Russian administration.

And I, as a native of Crimea, can confirm with full responsibility that everyone who could come - really voted and even those who found it difficult to walk - came and voted to secede from Ukraine.

Have nice nights.
Stas Mishchenkov.

--- ����� ࠧ ��堩 ��� ��᫥����. ��⮬� �� ������� ⠪ � �㤥�.
* Origin: Lame Users Breeding. Simferopol, Crimea. (2:460/5858)

Hello David,

As Crimea was stolen by military force ...
Yes, Ukraine has all the rights ...

Are yo sure? What about the referendum voted on by the peoples of Crimes?

What about the Supreme Soviet declaring Crimea as belonging to Ukraine?
Pravda wrote about this on February 27, 1954. That's right. The Supreme
Soviet approved Nikita Krushchev's action, making millions of Russians
instant citizens of Ukraine. Without ever having the chance to have a
vote of their own.

And the peoples of Crimea chose to rescind that and return to Russian administration.

An "election" sanctioned by Vladimir Putin and monitored by Russian
troops is not exactly what any sane person would call a "free and
fair" election. But then, nobody ever accused Putin (a former taxi
driver) of being "sane".

--Lee

--
As good as it looks

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello David,

Cardinal rule of politics -

Once you give something away, you can't take it back.

A rule of whose politics?

All politics is local.

It would appear that over the millennia places/resources have swapped hands
many times. Sometimes voluntarily, sometimes not so.

Once upon a time, Ottomans gave Crimea to Russia.
Once upon a time, Nikita Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine.
Once upon a time, Vladimir Putin gave Crimea to himself.

See how that works?

--Lee

--
Nobody Beats Our Meat

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 17/12/2021 18:22, Stas Mishchenkov : David Drummond wrote:

Hi, David!

17 дек 21 06:10, David Drummond -> Lee Lofaso:

 DD>> And the peoples of Crimea chose to rescind that and return to Russian
 DD>> administration.

And I, as a native of Crimea, can confirm with full responsibility that everyone who could come - really voted and even those who found it difficult to walk - came and voted to secede from Ukraine.

In Australia it is compulsory to vote. Failure without a good explanation attracts a fine.

In the over 40 years I have lived here I have never voted - but then, I am not a citizen and have no voting rights.

However, at least in Australia, it matters not which way one votes, the country still gets the same shitty politicians.

--
Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbi
* Origin: Somewhere, Qld (3:640/305)

On 18/12/2021 00:36, Lee Lofaso : David Drummond wrote:

 DD>> And the peoples of Crimea chose to rescind that and return to Russian
 DD>> administration.

An "election" sanctioned by Vladimir Putin and monitored by Russian
troops is not exactly what any sane person would call a "free and
fair" election. But then, nobody ever accused Putin (a former taxi
driver) of being "sane".

You were there witnessing this atrocity, and Stas, a resident of Crimea was not?

Whose word should I accept?


--
Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbi
* Origin: Somewhere, Qld (3:640/305)

On 18/12/2021 00:36, Lee Lofaso : David Drummond wrote:

Hello David,

 LL>>> Cardinal rule of politics -

 LL>>> Once you give something away, you can't take it back.

 DD>> A rule of whose politics?

All politics is local.

 DD>> It would appear that over the millennia places/resources have

swapped hands

 DD>> many times. Sometimes voluntarily, sometimes not so.

Once upon a time, Ottomans gave Crimea to Russia.
Once upon a time, Nikita Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine.
Once upon a time, Vladimir Putin gave Crimea to himself.

After the Crimean peoples voted for Russian administration. Putin just completed the paperwork.

See how that works?

Did the native peoples of Hawaii vote for US administration?

--
Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbi
* Origin: Somewhere, Qld (3:640/305)

Hi, Lee!

17 ��� 21 15:36, Lee Lofaso -> David Drummond:

An "election" sanctioned by Vladimir Putin and monitored by Russian
troops is not exactly what any sane person would call a "free and
fair" election.

You have the right not to love Putin and the whole of Russia, but do not talk nonsense about the withdrawal of Crimea from Ukraine. Not any of "Putin's soldiers" were not at the referendum. Police and civilian volunteers guarded the order.

https://cdnimg.rg.ru/i/gallery/5f4641a3/8_e9b8475f.jpg https://flot2017.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/czeli-i-predmet-deyatelnosti-fo nda-4.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/EeHaMHD3jzwwjOjsUT41XHmRlywWGrOPPFSdyoC ZVGDWkh-NLL75F8nwooiAxDz2LLMTcg_biwnzflzEE8H9JcEzz2kmdepS6GuWzDJih-3VIOBPeoJh6X Zp

https://gdb.rferl.org/9364F47F-48A9-464D-9590-8E515DF4C4C5_w1200_r1.jpg

And here's another very interesting photo. Civilians at the gates of the Ukrainian military unit.
https://im.kommersant.ru/Issues.photo/DAILY/2014/042/KMO_140281_00154_3_t218_22 2451.jpg

And this is Sebastopol. https://cdn-crimea-news.com/img/20210223/49df13034ec8357aba00da375e775eda.jpg

But then, nobody ever accused Putin (a former taxi driver) of being "sane".

You were "slightly" misinformed. Putin is a State Security Officer.

Have nice nights.
Stas Mishchenkov.

--- ����� ���譮� �� �, �� �� ⥯��� �����. � �, �� ����� ⥯��� ��
* Origin: Lame Users Breeding. Simferopol, Crimea. (2:460/5858)

Hi, Lee!

17 ��� 21 15:36, Lee Lofaso -> David Drummond:

An "election" sanctioned by Vladimir Putin and monitored by Russian
troops is not exactly what any sane person would call a "free and
fair" election.

You have the right not to love Putin and the whole of Russia, but do not talk nonsense about the withdrawal of Crimea from Ukraine. Not any of "Putin's soldiers" were not at the referendum. Police and civilian volunteers guarded the order.

https://cdnimg.rg.ru/i/gallery/5f4641a3/8_e9b8475f.jpg https://flot2017.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/czeli-i-predmet-deyatelnosti-fo nda-4.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/EeHaMHD3jzwwjOjsUT41XHmRlywWGrOPPFSdyoC ZVGDWkh-NLL75F8nwooiAxDz2LLMTcg_biwnzflzEE8H9JcEzz2kmdepS6GuWzDJih-3VIOBPeoJh6X Zp

https://gdb.rferl.org/9364F47F-48A9-464D-9590-8E515DF4C4C5_w1200_r1.jpg

And here's another very interesting photo. Civilians at the gates of the Ukrainian military unit.
https://im.kommersant.ru/Issues.photo/DAILY/2014/042/KMO_140281_00154_3_t218_22 2451.jpg

And this is Sebastopol. https://cdn-crimea-news.com/img/20210223/49df13034ec8357aba00da375e775eda.jpg

But then, nobody ever accused Putin (a former taxi driver) of being "sane".

You were "slightly" misinformed. Putin is a State Security (KGB) Officer.

Have nice nights.
Stas Mishchenkov.

--- ����� ���譮� �� �, �� �� ⥯��� �����. � �, �� ����� ⥯��� ��
* Origin: Lame Users Breeding. Simferopol, Crimea. (2:460/5858)

David,

In Australia it is compulsory to vote. Failure without a good
explanation attracts a fine.

I tell people that if you don't vote, you don't have a right to bitch
and complain about the outcome. I do my civic duty, and vote...even if
I have to "hold my nose" (they're scraping the bottom of the barrel in
most cases).

In the over 40 years I have lived here I have never voted - but then, I
am not a citizen and have no voting rights.

That sums it up.

However, at least in Australia, it matters not which way one votes, the country still gets the same shitty politicians.

When Bill Clinton was first elected US President in 1992, he did his
victory speech at the Old State House (originally Arkansas' capitol,
but still in Little Rock). Needless to say, media organizations from
around the world were in central Arkansas for the event.

Well, the media from Japan always have a problem with the American
English dialect...and it sounds like they're constantly "rolling their
R's". So, with their accent, the phrase "the great American election"
sounded like "the great American erection" (with the rolling R's).

Upon hearing that, I thought "That sounds right...for whoever we vote
for, we're going to get screwed".

Daryl

... Lead me not into temptation -- I'll find my own way.
=== MultiMail/Win v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: The Thunderbolt BBS - Little Rock, Arkansas (1:2320/33)

Hello, Stas!

You have the right not to love Putin and the whole of Russia, but do
not talk nonsense about the withdrawal of Crimea from Ukraine. Not any
of "Putin's soldiers" were not at the referendum. Police and civilian volunteers guarded the order.

If you spend 2 minutes to listen to what Putin said:
"Behind the self-defense forces of Crimea stood our servicemen". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ0CjshbsQc
And the Russian State TV made a whole documentary ( Crimea. The Way Home https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8nMhCMphYU ) where Putin admits that the whole thing was a russian special operation and that he had taken personal charge of Crimean annexation and that in case of "unfavorable scenario on the peninsula" Russia could have placed its nuclear weapons on combat readiness: https://ria.ru/20150315/1052668652.html

The ukrainian and international law was broken because this anexation was made without the approval of ukrainian side. If any region of Ukraine would leave then the referendum must be organized in all regions. All documents signed before between Russia and Ukraine confirmed Crimea as part of Ukraine. Before 2014 Russia didn't have territorial claims and then...

Ghil.
---
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

Ghil,

If you spend 2 minutes to listen to what Putin said:

There are at present a number of rogue nations in the world ... China, North Korea, Myanmar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Afghanistan, Belarus ... Russia ...

The trend was curbed in the USA last January 6th as that was one of our best chances to have a third world war with a continued Trump regime.

Russia became a rogue nation, not because of Putin, but because of the money behind Putin, mainly energy-money ... before it became such an energy-provider it was a joke. Now the pendulum swings to the complete opposite.

Russia needs a decent, unmanipulated election where opposition is not thrown into jail from the moment they hit the streets. Besides, I think types of government where so much power is in the hand of a single person is wrong ... Better is the Belgian system where you will die from boredom watching parliament in action ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Dec 14 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Better is the Belgian system where you will die from boredom watching parliament in action ...

I also think that Belgium still holds the world record for time without a government, almost two years, right?

The main advantage without a government for a couple of years is that we don't get all the new laws, one more stupid than the other, all because lawmakers want to make a statement...



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello, Ward!

Russia needs a decent, unmanipulated election where opposition is not thrown into jail from the moment they hit the streets. Besides, I
think types of government where so much power is in the hand of a
single person is wrong ... Better is the Belgian system where you will
die from boredom watching parliament in action ...

Just out of curiosity: is there any chance that Belgium could be partitioned and Flanders could join the Netherlands and Wallonia could join France (because of the linguistic division)?

Ghil.
---
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

Hello Ghil,

On Sunday December 19 2021 10:44, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

Just out of curiosity: is there any chance that Belgium could be partitioned and Flanders could join the Netherlands and Wallonia could join France (because of the linguistic division)?

I say this is unlikely to happen. Belgium secceeded from The Netherlands in 1830. I doubt there is a majority in either The Netherlands or Flanders that wants to undo that secession.

An exepriment on a much smaller scale, merging Fidonet R28 en R29 failed.

I do not know about Wallonia and France...


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Better is the Belgian system where you will die from boredom
watching parliament in action ...

I also think that Belgium still holds the world record for time
without a government, almost two years, right?

541 days .... and you know what? During that period the sun came up a whopping 541 times ... they worked with budgetary 1/12ths of the previous year and thereby were unable to do stupid things...

The main advantage without a government for a couple of years is that
we don't get all the new laws, one more stupid than the other, all
because lawmakers want to make a statement...

The only thing they could deal with is "current affairs" ... whatever was already on the agenda.

BTW, try googling " sjoemelpoedel " ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Dec 14 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Ghil,

Just out of curiosity: is there any chance that Belgium could be partitioned and Flanders could join the Netherlands and Wallonia could
join France (because of the linguistic division)?

Technically "yes" ... there's always a chance. Is there a chance I will win the Euromillions jackpot? Of course there's a chance ...

A union between the Netherlands and Flanders has been talked about for years. It would make a lot of sense ... economic, financial ... people from the Netherlands would finally learn proper Dutch ... 8-)

Walloonia is another thing, France does not really want them ... maybe Putin could rescue them.

Then there's also the Brussels region which is independant from Flanders as well as from Walloonia. What to do with them? They have 'Manneken Pis' ...

And let's not forget the German speaking East-Kantons ... what to do with them?

I think the real problem is the royal household, the king and his family, a 100% useless institution. It is only kept in existence through the discord of the different regions. Once the monarchy is disbanded the country would collapse ... Flanders forms an alliance with the Netherlands. Putin rescues Walloonia and requests NATO-membership for Russia as well as privileged status within the EU, Brussels will be taken-over by the Disney corporation and the East-Kantons will stay very very very quiet because they like their situation ... close to Germany for trading, close to Luxembourg for cheap fuel ...

Does this reply your question adequately?

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Dec 14 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Michiel,

Of course I need to reply ...

I say this is unlikely to happen. Belgium secceeded from The Netherlands
in 1830. I doubt there is a majority in either The Netherlands or
Flanders that wants to undo that secession.

1) Belgium did not secede ... it kicked the Netherlands out after conclusive military action ...

2) The subject has recently been tabled again and I think we're about 6% away from such a majority. Politics is a strange thing. But the royal family will use its influence to stop that and perpetuate their situation. Part of the reason the negotiations took that long and we now have a pharce of a government.

An exepriment on a much smaller scale, merging Fidonet R28 en R29 failed.

That's a matter of interpretation ... from my perspective it worked very well from the first day on August 13 2004, brokered by RC28 Jan Vermeulen until it collapsed under your guidance Oct.14 2017. Jan was a man with vision and perception.

R29's inclusion in R28 worked flawlessly under Jan Vermeulen for 3 years, for 4 years under Johan Zwiekhorst and for 6 years under yourself until you decided to start interfering in the N292-segment up to the point where the then NC292 declared it was impossible to work with you as an RC. A poll was held and it was unanymous to pull out of R28.

Stuff you did was manually editing segments because you didn't like them.

You also wanted to disband the whole net-292 and insert it into 280 with complete new numbering as per yopur defiinition of "true merging" meaning "change everything" for the remaining sysops at the time.

On top of that you wanted to scrap my 2:292/854-number which through my ZC-status handles hundreds of links and tasks. You were going to cause serious problems for me but also for every other sysop linking here. You were well aware and waved it away as 'eat the sour apply' ... that's in serious contrast of your sometimes use of the expression "smooth operation of the network" and your advocacy for the Fidoweb connection-method where a node could be serviced always as long as the netnumber over the whole network would be unique.

When Jan Vermeulen resigned and was about to drop away he suggested not to appoint you as RC28 because you would destroy the set-up, so I appointed Johan Zwiekhorst which made you really pissy ... When to my surprise Johan left, the region elected you and after some years Jan Vermeulen's prophecy materialised ... you wrecked the unified region for no other reason because you figured you could.

This whole story is indexed in archives somewhere ...

I'm pretty certain with another RC28 such as Kees Van Eeten, the merge could be picked-up again.

Merging regions can work ... R28/R29 did prove that and R20, R21, R22 and R23 are proving that every day.

Take care,

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Dec 14 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

BTW, try googling " sjoemelpoedel " ...

I tried, but only ended up at sites full of ads, chatter and nothing much info. Was it some kind of kind of charity scandal?



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

BTW, try googling " sjoemelpoedel " ...

I tried, but only ended up at sites full of ads, chatter and nothing
much info. Was it some kind of kind of charity scandal?

Well, the 'sjoemelpoedel" is a Flemish MP by the name of "Sihame El Kaouakibi" who managed to forge invoices for hundreds of thousands of Euro and falsely get government subsidies running into the millions.

As she is an MP she is a tad untouchable but doesn't dare anymore to show up in parliament. Every month she sends-in a docter's note claiming she is unfit to work and as a result she keeps on collecting 6.000 Euro a month.

When I fire up Goole Traslate it tells me that "sjoemelpoedel" translates into "cheating poodle".

OK ... now look at the lady's photo and remember "cheating poodle".

8-)

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Dec 14 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello Stas,

As Crimea was stolen by military force ...
Yes, Ukraine has all the rights ...

Are yo sure? What about the referendum voted on by the peoples of

Crimes?

What about the Supreme Soviet declaring Crimea as belonging to

Ukraine?

Pravda wrote about this on February 27, 1954. That's right. The

Supreme

Soviet approved Nikita Krushchev's action, making millions of

Russians

instant citizens of Ukraine. Without ever having the chance to have a
vote of their own.

Moreover, when they did manage to vote in the referendum on January 20, 1991, the results were ignored and Crimea remained as a part of Ukraine.

Yes. Which is why Ukraine conveniently ignored part of its own
constitution.

--Lee

--
Lovin' beats hatin'.

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello David,

And the peoples of Crimea chose to rescind that and return to Russian
administration.

An "election" sanctioned by Vladimir Putin and monitored by Russian
troops is not exactly what any sane person would call a "free and
fair" election. But then, nobody ever accused Putin (a former taxi
driver) of being "sane".

You were there witnessing this atrocity, and Stas, a resident of Crimea was
not?

45 million residents of Ukraine, including Stas, witnessed this
atrocity. The rest of the world, including Russians, also witnessed
this atrocity.

Whose word should I accept?

7.8 billion residents of the world, minus one Vladimir Putin.

--Lee

--
Laying Pipe Since '88

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello David,

Cardinal rule of politics -

Once you give something away, you can't take it back.

A rule of whose politics?

All politics is local.

It would appear that over the millennia places/resources have

swapped hands

many times. Sometimes voluntarily, sometimes not so.

Once upon a time, Ottomans gave Crimea to Russia.
Once upon a time, Nikita Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine.
Once upon a time, Vladimir Putin gave Crimea to himself.

After the Crimean peoples voted for Russian administration. Putin just completed the paperwork.

Russian soldiers come to your home, knock on your door, and ask you
to fill out papers that have one question with only one answer. You
comply, not wanting to get shot by playing Russian roulette. Putin
thanks soldiers for a job well done.

See how that works?

Did the native peoples of Hawaii vote for US administration?

Their queen never allowed them to have a vote.

--Lee

--
Laying Pipe Since '88

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Stas,

An "election" sanctioned by Vladimir Putin and monitored by Russian
troops is not exactly what any sane person would call a "free and
fair" election.

You have the right not to love Putin and the whole of Russia, but do not talk nonsense about the withdrawal of Crimea from Ukraine. Not any of "Putin's soldiers" were not at the referendum. Police and civilian volunteers guarded the order.

It was not Putin's call to make. Crimea is a part of the territory
of Ukraine, and is recognized by virtually the entire world as such.

It may be some of the people in Crimea desired independence, or
affiliation with Russia. But that is a decision that is up to the
people of Ukraine as a whole to make, not exclusively those within
Crimea. And most certainly not those who are outside of Ukraine.

Hitler and Stalin made a deal between themselves to carve up
Poland between them. We all know how that worked out.

While I realize Stalin's reasons were to buy time in order to
defend the USSR from what was to come, his only other option being
to surrender, it still did not give him the right to steal other
peoples' land.

Crimea was a land grab by Vladimir Putin. He was not doing any
favors for the people of Crimea. He had his own selfish reasons,
none of which could benefit anybody other than himelf.

How has life improved for those who live in Crimea since Russia
illegally annexed it? Not one whit. All it meant was a change in administration. De facto, not de jure.

https://cdnimg.rg.ru/i/gallery/5f4641a3/8_e9b8475f.jpg https://flot2017.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/czeli-i-predmet-deyatelnosti-fo
nda-4.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/EeHaMHD3jzwwjOjsUT41XHmRlywWGrOPPFSdyoC
ZVGDWkh-NLL75F8nwooiAxDz2LLMTcg_biwnzflzEE8H9JcEzz2kmdepS6GuWzDJih-3VIOBPeoJh6X
Zp

https://gdb.rferl.org/9364F47F-48A9-464D-9590-8E515DF4C4C5_w1200_r1.jpg

And here's another very interesting photo. Civilians at the gates of the Ukrainian military unit.

https://im.kommersant.ru/Issues.photo/DAILY/2014/042/KMO_140281_00154_3_t218_22
2451.jpg

Who has the right to secede? Can a people unilaterally secede from
a country it is part of? From 1861 to 1865 there were 11 states in
the United States of America that seceded, forming their own country
known as the Confederate States of America.

The CSA had its own Constitution, its own Congress, its own President,
its own currency, the whole nine yards. A war was fought between the
CSA and the USA, with the USA being victorious.

After the war, all 11 states that had seceded had to be re-admitted
to the USA by the Congress. And then the Congress passed a new law,
so that any state that wanted to secede had to get permission from
the Congress to do so in order to be legal.

I think somebody from Ukraine must have studied US history while
in school. Because it is written in the Ukrainian constitution that
any area that wants to secede must get permission from the rest of
Ukraine in order to be legal (constitutional).

Which is why the first time Crimea held a vote to secede it was
simply ignored by the rest of Ukraine.

You know, pretend it never happened.

International law is unclear or not settled on the matter of
this question. There are several areas in the world that a people
have the same desire, such as the Catalan region in Spain.

Perhaps this is an issue that should be taken up by the United
Nations. But I am not sure all nations want to come to an agreement
on this matter ...

And this is Sebastopol. https://cdn-crimea-news.com/img/20210223/49df13034ec8357aba00da375e775eda.jpg

A very interesting place. But only a selected few get to stay.

But then, nobody ever accused Putin (a former taxi driver) of being
"sane".

You were "slightly" misinformed. Putin is a State Security (KGB) Officer.

Oh, he was a very good clerk back in those days. Kind of like
Dwight Eisenhower, but without the uniform. But when his employer
went bankrupt he had to find another line of work. Hence his days
as a taxi driver.

Today he lets others do the driving for him.

--Lee

--
As Good As It Looks

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 20/12/2021 11:31, Lee Lofaso : David Drummond wrote:

 DD>> You were there witnessing this atrocity, and Stas, a resident of Crimea was
 DD>> not?

45 million residents of Ukraine, including Stas, witnessed this
atrocity. The rest of the world, including Russians, also witnessed
this atrocity.

 DD>> Whose word should I accept?

7.8 billion residents of the world, minus one Vladimir Putin.

You personally witnessed this, or did you read about it in some social media?

--
Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbi
* Origin: Somewhere, Qld (3:640/305)

On 20/12/2021 11:31, Lee Lofaso : David Drummond wrote:

 DD>> After the Crimean peoples voted for Russian administration. Putin just
 DD>> completed the paperwork.

Russian soldiers come to your home, knock on your door, and ask you
to fill out papers that have one question with only one answer. You comply, not wanting to get shot by playing Russian roulette.

And yet our Fidonet eyewitness refutes your claim.

--
Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbi
* Origin: Somewhere, Qld (3:640/305)

Hello Ghil,

You have the right not to love Putin and the whole of Russia, but do
not talk nonsense about the withdrawal of Crimea from Ukraine. Not any
of "Putin's soldiers" were not at the referendum. Police and civilian
volunteers guarded the order.

If you spend 2 minutes to listen to what Putin said:
"Behind the self-defense forces of Crimea stood our servicemen". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ0CjshbsQc
And the Russian State TV made a whole documentary ( Crimea. The Way Home https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8nMhCMphYU ) where Putin admits that the whole thing was a russian special operation and that he had taken personal charge of Crimean annexation and that in case of "unfavorable scenario on the peninsula" Russia could have placed its nuclear weapons on combat readiness: https://ria.ru/20150315/1052668652.html

The issue is not about whether one likes or dislikes Vladimir Putin.
He is a politician, and elected president of Russia. Some people love
him, others hate him, and a very small handful of people do not care
one way or another.

I know people who adore Donald Trump, and would do anything he
tells them, including jumping off a cliff. I also know people who
hate Donald Trump with a passion, and get visibly upset at the
mere sight of him on television (seeing him in person might be
too much for them to handle).

Seeing the two of them together must have been quite a shock
for those who both love them and hate them. :)

The ukrainian and international law was broken because this anexation was made without the approval of ukrainian side. If any region of Ukraine would
leave then the referendum must be organized in all regions. All documents signed before between Russia and Ukraine confirmed Crimea as part of Ukraine. Before 2014 Russia didn't have territorial claims and then...

That is only part of it. A small part. Here is a longer, more detailed explanation, by Ambassador Neil Bush, in a written statement published
on 4 March 2021 -

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/seven-years-of-illegal- occupation-of-crimea-by-the-russian-federation-uk-statement


"The UK does not and will not recognise Russia's illegal annexation
of Russia." ~Ambassador Neil Bush, 4 March 2021

The first principle of international law - that countries may not
acquire territory or change borders by force - was clearly violated
by Russia. Absolutely no question about it. Kind of like the Golan
Heights having been illegally annexed by Israel.

But lets not stop there. Russia also violated Article 2 of the
United Nations Charter, the Helsini Final Act, and the Budapest
memorandum. As mentioned by Ambassador Neil Bush in his hit
piece. He also reminds folks about that so-called referendum
having been "conducted in a heavily militarised environment;
was clearly illegal under the Ukrainian Constitution, and
the result remains unrecognised by the international community."

May we all live in interesting times.

--Lee

--
In solidarity - RIP George Floyd - Black Lives Matter
--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello David,

You were there witnessing this atrocity, and Stas, a resident of

Crimea was

not?

45 million residents of Ukraine, including Stas, witnessed this
atrocity. The rest of the world, including Russians, also witnessed
this atrocity.

Whose word should I accept?

7.8 billion residents of the world, minus one Vladimir Putin.

You personally witnessed this, or did you read about it in some social media?

The only social media available for Ukrainians in Crimea are
Russian gulags. I am sure arrangements can be made for anybody
who wants to visit them.

--Lee

--
The more you play with it the harder it gets

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello David,

After the Crimean peoples voted for Russian administration. Putin

just

completed the paperwork.

Russian soldiers come to your home, knock on your door, and ask you
to fill out papers that have one question with only one answer. You
comply, not wanting to get shot by playing Russian roulette.

And yet our Fidonet eyewitness refutes your claim.

"This so-called referendum was conducted in a heavily militarised
environment; was clearly illegal under the Ukrainian Constitution,
and the result remains unrecognised by the international community."
~ Ambassador Neil Bush, in a written statement published 4 March 2021

The entire world (including Fidonet) says David D. is full of cr*p.

--Lee

--
Our Nuts, Your Mouth

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hi, Lee Lofaso!
I read your message from 20.12.2021 04:31

LL> It was not Putin's call to make. Crimea is a part of the
LL> territory of Ukraine, and is recognized by virtually the entire
LL> world as such. It may be some of the people in Crimea desired
LL> independence, or affiliation with Russia. But that is a
LL> decision that is up to the people of Ukraine as a whole to
LL> make, not exclusively those within Crimea. And most certainly
LL> not those who are outside of Ukraine.

The main problem here is that the Crimean people are not a suitcase and
nobody is able to return them back to the Ukraine without their consent.
So "not some people", but almost all people in the Crimea doesn't
support the ultra-nationalist authority in Kiev, and its strict
restriction of the Russian language in the Ukraine. The West can accept
the will of the residents of the Crimea like it had done in Kosovo case
some years ago, or, on the other way, the West actually will build the
ground for a bloody invasion of the Ukraine troops (in case if in Russia
will be antiputin Kasparov's government).

Bye, Lee!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews 2021
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

On 21/12/2021 06:19, Lee Lofaso : David Drummond wrote:

 LL>>> Russian soldiers come to your home, knock on your door, and ask you
 LL>>> to fill out papers that have one question with only one answer. You
 LL>>> comply, not wanting to get shot by playing Russian roulette.

 DD>> And yet our Fidonet eyewitness refutes your claim.

"This so-called referendum was conducted in a heavily militarised environment; was clearly illegal under the Ukrainian Constitution,
and the result remains unrecognised by the international community."
~ Ambassador Neil Bush, in a written statement published 4 March 2021

Who the fuck is Ambassador Bush? Some USAian? Is he a relative of George?

If so I doubt his credibility.

The entire world (including Fidonet) says David D. is full of cr*p.

Nope. I'm saying that an eye witness is more credible than biased news sources.


--
Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbi
* Origin: Somewhere, Qld (3:640/305)

Hello Alexander,

It was not Putin's call to make. Crimea is a part of the
territory of Ukraine, and is recognized by virtually the entire
world as such. It may be some of the people in Crimea desired
independence, or affiliation with Russia. But that is a
decision that is up to the people of Ukraine as a whole to
make, not exclusively those within Crimea. And most certainly
not those who are outside of Ukraine.

The main problem here is that the Crimean people are not a suitcase and nobody is able to return them back to the Ukraine without their consent.

The people of the Crimean peninsula never gave their consent to
anybody (including Vladimir Putin) to steal their land.

Whatever happened to "the will of the people"? David D. does have
a point, reminding us all "What do the people want?"

Is it whatever Vladimir Putin tells the world? Not in my book.
And not in anybody else's book. So why should he be The Decider?
Besides, George W. Bush claimed the title long before Putin.

The US Constitution makes no mention or reference to the issue
of secession. Yet several states seceded from the USA, creating
their own country. A war between the two sides was fought from
1861-1865, with the victor being the USA. The 13 states that
had seceded from the USA were then re-admitted, and told they
could never do it again.

Finland seceded from the USSR in 1917. Lenin did not bother
re-admitting them. Neither did Stalin. And then some numbskull
leader in the USSR decided to meet with US President Gerald
Ford in Helsinki. We all know what happened next.

So "not some people", but almost all people in the Crimea doesn't
support the ultra-nationalist authority in Kiev, and its strict restriction of the Russian language in the Ukraine.

A people define themselves by their language. But a people's
culture is not entirely its own language, as it is also linked
to its history. Hispanics define themselves by language (Spanish),
regardless of race. Cajuns also define themselves by language
(French), regardless of race. Yes, geographic location does play
a part. But language is primary.

The West can accept the will of the residents of the Crimea like it had done
in Kosovo case some years ago,

https://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/speeches/750459.asp

"Peace is not a piece of paper."
~ US President Gerald R. Ford, Helsinki

35 countries signed the Helsinki Accords. It is a commitment
by all to the principles stated in that document. Ford's speech
was direct and to the point.

Kosovo is an interesting case, as it is neither a UN member nor
UN observer. So what is it?

Kosovo declared its independence in 2008. It is recognized by
97 UN members, the Republic of China (not a member of the UN),
the Cook Islands and Niue.

The United Nations, as noted in Security Council Resolution
1244, has administered the territory known as Kosovo since 1999,
with cooperation from the European Union since 2008.

The people of Kosovo were so happy of being independent that
they erected a giant statue of Bill Clinton in the town square.
Not sure who gave them the idea to do that, or who created the
sculpture.

or, on the other way, the West actually will build the ground for a bloody invasion of the Ukraine troops (in case if in Russia will be antiputin Kasparov's government).

Kasparov is known for his style of what he calls "fighting chess".
But he has not been very successful as of late, with young players
from all over have shown.

Looks like Kasparov has chickened out on the political front,
having recently returned to competitive chess. However, he does
have a very deep mountain to climb, with world champion Magnus
Carlsen standing in the way, as well as a young stud from Iran
who lives in France who may be many times better.

--Lee

--
Always in beta

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello David,

After the Crimean peoples voted for Russian administration. Putin just
completed the paperwork.

Russian soldiers come to your home, knock on your door, and ask you
to fill out papers that have one question with only one answer. You
comply, not wanting to get shot by playing Russian roulette.

And yet our Fidonet eyewitness refutes your claim.

My apologies for name-calling. No Kiwi can ever be full of cr*p.
Even those living in the land of Oz.

Nobody can change the facts. And those facts will not change
with the passage of time.

The so-called "referendum" was a sham, conducted in a heavily
militarised environment (courtesy of the Red Army). Our dear friend
Stas is an eyewitness to this. As well as most other residents in
the Crimean peninsula. This sham referendum (or whatever else
one wants to call it) was clearly illegal under the Ukrainian
Constitution. Look who sponsored it - Vladimir Putin. As if he
has the right to take and grab whatever land he wants, whenever
he wants.

The end result remains unrecognized, as the international
community continues to regard Crimea as "occupied Ukrainian
territory".

The passage of time will not change this. Vladimir Putin has made
himself the pariah of the world, including within his own country.

--Lee

--
Melts in your mouth, not in your hands

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello David,

Russian soldiers come to your home, knock on your door, and ask you
to fill out papers that have one question with only one answer. You
comply, not wanting to get shot by playing Russian roulette.

And yet our Fidonet eyewitness refutes your claim.

"This so-called referendum was conducted in a heavily militarised
environment; was clearly illegal under the Ukrainian Constitution,
and the result remains unrecognised by the international community."
~ Ambassador Neil Bush, in a written statement published 4 March 2021

Who the fuck is Ambassador Bush? Some USAian? Is he a relative of George?

British ambassador to Ukraine.

If so I doubt his credibility.

It was written by his own hand.

The entire world (including Fidonet) says David D. is full of cr*p.

Nope. I'm saying that an eye witness is more credible than biased news sources.

Ambassadors never lie. They are just more expedient with the truth.

--Lee

--
I Take A Sheet In The Pool

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hi, Lee Lofaso!
I read your message from 22.12.2021 18:31

LL>>> It was not Putin's call to make. Crimea is a part of the
LL>>> territory of Ukraine, and is recognized by virtually the entire
LL>>> world as such. It may be some of the people in Crimea desired
LL>>> independence, or affiliation with Russia. But that is a decision
LL>>> that is up to the people of Ukraine as a whole to make, not
LL>>> exclusively those within Crimea. And most certainly not those who
LL>>> are outside of Ukraine.

ak>> The main problem here is that the Crimean people are not a
ak>> suitcase and nobody is able to return them back to the Ukraine
ak>> without their consent.

LL> The people of the Crimean peninsula never gave their consent to
LL> anybody (including Vladimir Putin) to steal their land.

They had no choice -- they were forced to choose the lesser of two
evils. I assure you that nazism in Ukraine is worse for the Russian
people than totalitarianism in Russia. Putin has stolen nothing. The
Crimean people are not captives, are not poor ones, and they are not
under occupation (look for Arabs in Israel to know what the term means)
-- they chose to separate from the Ukraine themselves, and Ukraine must
blame in the situation only itself, especially the ultra-nationalist
movement which was the main force of the state coup in 2014.

LL> Whatever happened to "the will of the people"? David D. does have a
LL> point, reminding us all "What do the people want?"

LL> Is it whatever Vladimir Putin tells the world? Not in my book. And
LL> not in anybody else's book. So why should he be The Decider?
LL> Besides, George W. Bush claimed the title long before Putin.

The Ukraine of 2014 was divided for Russian and antirussian parts. The
West close its eyes and did not want to see actual facts. Putin had not decided to conquer the Crimea, but he only accepted the decision of the population which was categorically against new authority in Kiev. I said
many times -- the Crimea literally fell on his head.

LL> The US Constitution makes no mention or reference to the issue of
LL> secession. Yet several states seceded from the USA, creating their
LL> own country. A war between the two sides was fought from 1861-1865,
LL> with the victor being the USA. The 13 states that had seceded from
LL> the USA were then re-admitted, and told they could never do it
LL> again.

LL> Finland seceded from the USSR in 1917. Lenin did not bother re-
LL> admitting them. Neither did Stalin. And then some numbskull leader
LL> in the USSR decided to meet with US President Gerald Ford in
LL> Helsinki. We all know what happened next.

When in a country, which consists of many parts and nations, there are
a jumble, revolts and division -- the most probable scenario is -- it
stops to exist as a whole entity. That happened in many countries. It
happened in Russia in 1917, in the USSR 1990, in the Ukraine 2014.
History can teach people, but it cannot teach foolish people.

ak>> So "not some people", but almost all people in the Crimea doesn't
ak>> support the ultra-nationalist authority in Kiev, and its strict
ak>> restriction of the Russian language in the Ukraine.

LL> A people define themselves by their language. But a people's
LL> culture is not entirely its own language, as it is also linked to
LL> its history. Hispanics define themselves by language (Spanish),
LL> regardless of race. Cajuns also define themselves by language
LL> (French), regardless of race. Yes, geographic location does play a
LL> part. But language is primary.
ak>> The West can accept the will of the residents of the Crimea like
ak>> it had done in Kosovo case some years ago,
LL> https://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/speeches/750459.asp
LL> "Peace is not a piece of paper." ~ US President Gerald R. Ford,
LL> Helsinki

LL> 35 countries signed the Helsinki Accords. It is a commitment by all
LL> to the principles stated in that document. Ford's speech was direct
LL> and to the point.

According the Helsinki Accords there are no such states as Ukraine,
Estonia etc. But they are now.

LL> Kosovo is an interesting case, as it is neither a UN member nor UN
LL> observer. So what is it?

LL> Kosovo declared its independence in 2008. It is recognized by 97 UN
LL> members, the Republic of China (not a member of the UN), the Cook
LL> Islands and Niue.

LL> The United Nations, as noted in Security Council Resolution 1244,
LL> has administered the territory known as Kosovo since 1999, with
LL> cooperation from the European Union since 2008.

LL> The people of Kosovo were so happy of being independent that they
LL> erected a giant statue of Bill Clinton in the town square. Not sure
LL> who gave them the idea to do that, or who created the sculpture.

I assure you that Putin for the Crimeans is exactly as Bill Clinton for
people of Kosovo.

ak>> or, on the other way, the West actually will build the ground for
ak>> a bloody invasion of the Ukraine troops (in case if in Russia will
ak>> be antiputin Kasparov's government).

LL> Kasparov is known for his style of what he calls "fighting chess".
LL> But he has not been very successful as of late, with young players
LL> from all over have shown.

It's life -- old people think slower and became absent-minded. And,
besides, wisdom came, which tells that chess now is foolish way of time spending. ;-)

LL> Looks like Kasparov has chickened out on the political front,
LL> having recently returned to competitive chess. However, he does
LL> have a very deep mountain to climb, with world champion Magnus
LL> Carlsen standing in the way, as well as a young stud from Iran who
LL> lives in France who may be many times better.

But politicians are old people as a rule. Young politicians act too
radically. It is bad.

Bye, Lee!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews 2021
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Alexander,

It's life -- old people think slower and became absent-minded. And, besides, wisdom came, which tells that chess now is foolish way of time spending. ;-)

Depends. I play a decent game of chess ... at age 11 I beat my dad who had an international ranking ... he never recovered from that (claiming I was so lowly ranked that I could never beat him though the board said 'check mate')

Then 2 years ago my 9 yr old granddaughter beat me and I smiled, I did not let her beat me, she just did it ... and I knew she was going to be OK being able to master that and think that far ahead.

But politicians are old people as a rule. Young politicians act too radically. It is bad.

Stay away from the Green parties ... they break economies and people's lives.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Dec 14 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

On 23/12/2021 01:31, Lee Lofaso : David Drummond wrote:

 DD>> And yet our Fidonet eyewitness refutes your claim.

My apologies for name-calling. No Kiwi can ever be full of cr*p.
Even those living in the land of Oz.

Nobody can change the facts. And those facts will not change
with the passage of time.

There are no such thing as facts - only opinions.

At least that's what I think.

--
Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbi
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Hello David,

On Friday December 24 2021 07:27, you wrote to Lee Lofaso:

There are no such thing as facts - only opinions.

At least that's what I think.

I disagree. But of course that is just my opinion.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

On 24/12/2021 08:06, Michiel van der Vlist : David Drummond wrote:

 DD>> There are no such thing as facts - only opinions.

 DD>> At least that's what I think.

MvdV> I disagree. But of course that is just my opinion.

:)

--
Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbi
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Hi, Ward Dossche!
I read your message from 23.12.2021 10:42

ak>> It's life -- old people think slower and became absent-minded.
ak>> And, besides, wisdom came, which tells that chess now is foolish
ak>> way of time spending.

WD> Depends. I play a decent game of chess... at age 11 I beat my dad
WD> who had an international ranking... he never recovered from that
WD> (claiming I was so lowly ranked that I could never beat him though
WD> the board said 'check mate')

Devoting a whole life to chess was justified in the time when there was
no computers and other clever things. Chess now (when you do it as a professional) is useless spending of mental energy, while there are a
great number of other ways to utilize it. I understand, of course, that
any competition now can bring money, even a group jumping in sacks
around the pole, but nevertheless....

WD> Then 2 years ago my 9 yr old granddaughter beat me and I smiled, I
WD> did not let her beat me, she just did it... and I knew she was
WD> going to be OK being able to master that and think that far ahead.

I wish her to not become a gamer.

ak>> But politicians are old people as a rule. Young politicians act
ak>> too radically. It is bad.

WD> Stay away from the Green parties... they break economies and
WD> people's lives.

Actually, their actions will be either positive for people or negative.
People in democratic countries must decide it themselves.

Bye, Ward!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2021
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Alexander,

Actually, their actions will be either positive for people or negative. People in democratic countries must decide it themselves.

Democracy is a hoax ... Money decides because that is what makes the wheels spin, not democracy ... our current government in Belgium is a clear example of how a minority of political parties hi-jacked the will of the people by not being representative for the majority ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Dec 14 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hi, Ward Dossche!
I read your message from 24.12.2021 12:45

ak>> Actually, their actions will be either positive for people
ak>> or negative. People in democratic countries must decide it
ak>> themselves.
WD> Democracy is a hoax ... Money decides because that is what
WD> makes the wheels spin, not democracy ... our current government
WD> in Belgium is a clear example of how a minority of political
WD> parties hi-jacked the will of the people by not being
WD> representative for the majority ...

I also noted that the situation has a tendency to go from worse to the
worst. ;-) And in human rights too, judging by the trial of Julian
Assange and those who protested against election results in the USA. We
should wait a very little time until the people participating in
meetings and protests will be fined automatically via street cameras.
And money will be automatically withdrawn from your bank account before
you return home. ;-)

Bye, Ward!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews 2021
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