Hello All,

=== begin ===

*********************************************************************
FTSC FIDONET TECHNICAL STANDARDS COMMITTEE *********************************************************************

Publication: FSP-xxxx
Revision: 1
Title: The PING and TRACE flags
Author(s): Michiel van der Vlist
Issue Date: 17 April 2021 =====================================================================


Status:

This document is a Fidonet Standards Proposal (FSP) - it specifies
the best current practices for the Fidonet community, and requests
discussion and suggestions for improvements. It is released to the
public domain, and may be used, copied or modified for any purpose
whatever.


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Contents:
0. Definitions
1. Introduction.
2. The problem.
3. The solution.
4. Considerations
A. References
B. History
C. Contact data ---------------------------------------------------------------------


0. Definitions
--------------

The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL
NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL"
in this document are to be interpreted as described in [FTA-1006].


1. Introduction
---------------

The PING functionality as introduced by Ward Dossche just over two
centuries ago and advertised by the PING flag is a very useful tool
in tracing and solving routing problems. This proposal is an update
of the original specs and introduces the TRACE flag.


2. The problem
--------------

In the original specification as documented by Ward Dossche in the
April 2001 Z2 nodelist trailer and the specification last documented
in FTS-5001.006, the PING functionality contains two parts. PING and
TRACE. According to that specification systems flying the PING flag
should support both PING and TRACE functionality.

Recent surveys by the author however have shown that not all systems
flying the PING flag also support the TRACE functionality. One could
argue that current practise is that TRACE functionality is optional.

Considering that the PING function alone is a very useful tool all
by itself for both routing systems and leaf systems and that TRACE
is only useful for routing systems, one may conclude that the above
current practise works well, but that it is not complient with the
original and current specs.


3. The Solution
---------------

Split up the PING and TRACE functionality.


PING
----

Specified as exactly "PING" with no arguments. Nodes flying this
flag will adhere to the following functionality:

If a message destined to user "PING" (case insensitive) arrives
at its final destination and this final destination flies the
PING flag, then the receiving node will bounce the message back
to the original sender clearly quoting all the original via
lines.

If a message destined to "PING" arrives at its final destination
but this final destination does _not_ fly the PING flag then the
message may be deleted from the system without further action.


TRACE
-----

Specified as exactly "TRACE" with no arguments. Nodes flying this
flag will adhere to the following functionality:

If a message destined to user "PING" (case insensitive) arrives
at a node which flies the TRACE flag but is merely passing
through to another destination then the in-transit node will
notify the sender of this occurrence, clearly quoting the via
lines, and forward the original mail unaltered towards its final
destination.


For both PING and TRACE responses, the sender's name must never
be "PING" and the responses should never be addressed to "PING".


4. Considerations
-----------------

Making the TRACE function optional by seperating the flags, is an
encouragement for developers and script writers to join the project.
They can choose to only implement the PING functionality and leave
TRACE functionality for later or ommit it completely without
violating the specs. This will hopefully make more sysops join
the PING club.

Splitting up the PING and TRACE functionality by introducing the
TRACE flag is backward compatible. Systems flying the PING flag
that do not support TRACE need do nothing, They are complient
with the new specs. Systems flying the PING flag that support
both PING and TRACE functionality may add the TRACE flag to their
listing. But if they do not, no harm is done, they are still
complient with the new specs, it just does not advertise all
functionality.


A. References
-------------


[FTS-5] "The distribution nodelist", Ben Baker, Rick Moore.
February 1989. Obsoleted by FTS-5000.

FTS-5000] "The distribution nodelist".
FTSC Members, Administrator and Honoured Guests
Januari 2014.

[FTS-5001] "Nodelist flags and userflags".
FTSC Members, Administrator and Honoured Guests
Augustus 2017.

A PING robot survey. Michiel van der Vlist
Fidonews 38:07, 15 Februari 2021.

Ping robot survey, a follow up. Michiel van der Vlist
Fidonews 38:15, 12 April 2021.


B. History
----------

Rev,1, 2021-04-17: Initial release.


C. Contact Data
---------------

Michiel van der Vlist
Fidonet: 2:280/5555
E-mail: pa0mmv at vrza dot org


=== end ===

Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hello Michiel,

Saturday April 17 2021, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to All:

The PING functionality as introduced by Ward Dossche just over two centuries ago

Really? I thought it was much earlier.

Michael

... node (at) f1042 (dot) ru
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Moscow, Russia (2:5020/1042)

On 17 Apr 21 19:46:26, Michiel Van Der Vlist said the following to All:

Specified as exactly "TRACE" with no arguments. Nodes flying this
flag will adhere to the following functionality:

Added here.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Hello Michael,

On Saturday April 17 2021 21:34, you wrote to me:

Hello Michiel,

Saturday April 17 2021, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to All:

The PING functionality as introduced by Ward Dossche just over
two centuries ago

Really? I thought it was much earlier.

Ah c'mon, just 10 dB off. ;-)


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hello All,

2nd attempt.


=== begin ===


*********************************************************************
FTSC FIDONET TECHNICAL STANDARDS COMMITTEE *********************************************************************

Publication: FSP-xxxx
Revision: 1
Title: The PING and TRACE flags
Author(s): Michiel van der Vlist
Issue Date: 17 April 2021 =====================================================================


Status:

This document is a Fidonet Standards Proposal (FSP) - it specifies
the best current practices for the Fidonet community, and requests
discussion and suggestions for improvements. It is released to the
public domain, and may be used, copied or modified for any purpose
whatever.


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Contents:
0. Definitions
1. Introduction.
2. The problem.
3. The solution.
4. Considerations
A. References
B. History
C. Contact data ---------------------------------------------------------------------


0. Definitions
--------------

The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL
NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL"
in this document are to be interpreted as described in [FTA-1006].


1. Introduction
---------------

The PING functionality as introduced by Ward Dossche just over two
decades ago and advertised by the PING flag is a very useful tool
in tracing and solving routing problems. This proposal is an update
of the original specs and introduces the TRACE flag.


2. The problem
--------------

In the original specification as documented by Ward Dossche in the
April 2001 Z2 nodelist trailer and the specification last documented
in FTS-5001.006, the PING functionality contains two parts. PING and
TRACE. According to that specification systems flying the PING flag
should support both PING and TRACE functionality.

Recent surveys by the author however have shown that not all systems
flying the PING flag also support the TRACE functionality. One could
argue that current practise is that TRACE functionality is optional.

Considering that the PING function alone is a very useful tool all
by itself for both routing systems and leaf systems and that TRACE
is only useful for routing systems, one may conclude that the above
current practise works well, but that it is not complient with the
original and current specs.


3. The Solution
---------------

Split up the PING and TRACE functionality.


PING
----

Specified as exactly "PING" with no arguments. Nodes flying this
flag will adhere to the following functionality:

If a message destined to user "PING" (case insensitive) arrives
at its final destination and this final destination flies the
PING flag, then the receiving node will bounce the message back
to the original sender clearly quoting all the original via
lines.

If a message destined to "PING" arrives at its final destination
but this final destination does _not_ fly the PING flag then the
message may be deleted from the system without further action.


TRACE
-----

Specified as exactly "TRACE" with no arguments. Nodes flying this
flag will adhere to the following functionality:

If a message destined to user "PING" (case insensitive) arrives
at a node which flies the TRACE flag but is merely passing
through to another destination then the in-transit node will
notify the sender of this occurrence, clearly quoting the via
lines, and forward the original mail unaltered towards its final
destination.


For both PING and TRACE responses, the sender's name must never
be "PING" and the responses should never be addressed to "PING".


4. Considerations
-----------------

Making the TRACE function optional by seperating the flags, is an
encouragement for developers and script writers to join the project.
They can choose to only implement the PING functionality and leave
TRACE functionality for later or ommit it completely without
violating the specs. This will hopefully make more sysops join
the PING club.

Splitting up the PING and TRACE functionality by introducing the
TRACE flag is backward compatible. Systems flying the PING flag
that do not support TRACE need do nothing, They are complient
with the new specs. Systems flying the PING flag that support
both PING and TRACE functionality may add the TRACE flag to their
listing. But if they do not, no harm is done, they are still
complient with the new specs, it just does not advertise all
functionality.


A. References
-------------


[FTS-5] "The distribution nodelist", Ben Baker, Rick Moore.
February 1989. Obsoleted by FTS-5000.

FTS-5000] "The distribution nodelist".
FTSC Members, Administrator and Honoured Guests
Januari 2014.

[FTS-5001] "Nodelist flags and userflags".
FTSC Members, Administrator and Honoured Guests
Augustus 2017.

A PING robot survey. Michiel van der Vlist
Fidonews 38:07, 15 Februari 2021.

Ping robot survey, a follow up. Michiel van der Vlist
Fidonews 38:15, 12 April 2021.


B. History
----------

Rev,1, 2021-04-17: Initial release.


C. Contact Data
---------------

Michiel van der Vlist
Fidonet: 2:280/5555
E-mail: pa0mmv at vrza dot org


=== end ===


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hello Michiel!

17 Apr 21 21:54, you wrote to all:

2nd attempt.

Your proposal has been received and assigned the number FSP-1043.001.

Thank you for your submission.

Andrew
FTSC Administrator

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Phoenix BBS * phoenix.bnbbbs.net (1:320/219)

Hi! Andrew,

On 04/18/2021 06:27 AM, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

Your proposal has been received and assigned the number FSP-1043.001.

Would you please fix the "complient" (two instances, IIRC), in your file copy. There is no 'e'; it ought be replaced with an 'a', resulting in "compliant".

Ta, muchly.

Cheers,
Paul.

--- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
* Origin: No Country Music for Old Men. (3:640/1384.125)

** On Sunday 18.04.21 - 08:23, Paul Quinn wrote to Andrew Leary:

Would you please fix the "complient" (two instances, IIRC), in your file copy. There is no 'e'; it ought be replaced with an 'a', resulting in "compliant".

There are several others that could use adjustment:

practise : practice

seperating : separating

ommit : omit

Januari : January

Februari : February

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.49
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)

Re: FTS-xxxx.001 PING and TRACE flags
By: Michiel van der Vlist to All on Sat Apr 17 2021 09:54 pm

in FTS-5001.006, the PING functionality contains two parts. PING and
TRACE. According to that specification systems flying the PING flag

Make that: "two parts: PING and TRACE."

argue that current practise is that TRACE functionality is optional.

Alternate spelling of "practice" there.

current practise works well, but that it is not complient with the

^^^^^^^^^ spelling

Making the TRACE function optional by seperating the flags, is an

^^^^^^^^^^ spelling

TRACE functionality for later or ommit it completely without

^^^^^ spelling

that do not support TRACE need do nothing, They are complient

caps ^ ^^^^^^^^^ spelling

complient with the new specs, it just does not advertise all

^^^^^^^^^ spelling

What's the FTSC documentation standard regarding grammar and spelling?
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)

Hello Paul!

18 Apr 21 08:23, you wrote to me:

Your proposal has been received and assigned the number
FSP-1043.001.

Would you please fix the "complient" (two instances, IIRC), in your
file copy. There is no 'e'; it ought be replaced with an 'a',
resulting in "compliant".

I had seen that already; it has been corrected in the next draft.

Andrew

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Phoenix BBS * phoenix.bnbbbs.net (1:320/219)

Hello August!

17 Apr 21 19:50, you wrote to me:

There are several others that could use adjustment:

practise : practice
seperating : separating
ommit : omit

These have been corrected in the next draft.

Januari : January
Februari : February

The dates have been changed to ISO format in the next draft.

Andrew

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Phoenix BBS * phoenix.bnbbbs.net (1:320/219)

Hello Rob!

17 Apr 21 18:38, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

@TZUTC: -0700
@MSGID: 31180.ftsc_pub@1:103/705 24e13d70
@REPLY: 2:280/5555 607b3d0b
@PID: Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 master/ed1d83733 Apr 17 2021 MSC 1928
@TID: SBBSecho 3.14-Linux master/aed987f4a Apr 16 2021 GCC 8.3.0
@CHRS: ASCII 1
@NOTE: FSEditor.js v1.104
Re: FTS-xxxx.001 PING and TRACE flags
By: Michiel van der Vlist to All on Sat Apr 17 2021 09:54 pm

in FTS-5001.006, the PING functionality contains two parts. PING
and TRACE. According to that specification systems flying the PING
flag

Make that: "two parts: PING and TRACE."

argue that current practise is that TRACE functionality is
optional.

Alternate spelling of "practice" there.

current practise works well, but that it is not complient with the

^^^^^^^^^ spelling

Making the TRACE function optional by seperating the flags, is an

^^^^^^^^^^ spelling

TRACE functionality for later or ommit it completely without

^^^^^ spelling

that do not support TRACE need do nothing, They are complient

caps ^ ^^^^^^^^^
spelling

complient with the new specs, it just does not advertise all

^^^^^^^^^ spelling

What's the FTSC documentation standard regarding grammar and spelling?

All of your changes above have been applied to the next draft. Thanks for your input.

Andrew

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Phoenix BBS * phoenix.bnbbbs.net (1:320/219)

Hi! Andrew,

On 04/18/2021 03:46 PM, you wrote:

resulting in "compliant".

I had seen that already; it has been corrected in the next draft.

Thank you for your keen diligence.

Cheers,
Paul.

--- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
* Origin: In CyberSpace, no one can hear you whistle. (3:640/1384.125)

Hello Michiel!

*** Saturday April 17 2021 21:54, you wrote to All:

MvdV> Hello All,

MvdV> 2nd attempt.


MvdV> === begin ===


MvdV> *********************************************************************
MvdV> FTSC FIDONET TECHNICAL STANDARDS COMMITTEE
MvdV> *********************************************************************

MvdV> Publication: FSP-xxxx
MvdV> Revision: 1
MvdV> Title: The PING and TRACE flags
MvdV> Author(s): Michiel van der Vlist
MvdV> Issue Date: 17 April 2021
MvdV> =====================================================================


MvdV> Status:

MvdV> This document is a Fidonet Standards Proposal (FSP) - it specifies
MvdV> the best current practices for the Fidonet community, and requests
^
No comma required
MvdV> discussion and suggestions for improvements. It is released to the
MvdV> public domain, and may be used, copied or modified for any purpose
^
No comma required
MvdV> whatever.


MvdV> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
MvdV> Contents:
MvdV> 0. Definitions
MvdV> 1. Introduction.
MvdV> 2. The problem.
MvdV> 3. The solution.
MvdV> 4. Considerations
MvdV> A. References
MvdV> B. History
MvdV> C. Contact data
MvdV> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
In the above, do we need full stops after "Introduction.", "The problem." and "The solution.". I'm a bit unsure about that.

MvdV> 0. Definitions
MvdV> --------------

MvdV> The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL
MvdV> NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL"
^
No comma required
MvdV> in this document are to be interpreted as described in [FTA-1006].


MvdV> 1. Introduction
MvdV> ---------------

MvdV> The PING functionality as introduced by Ward Dossche just over two
^
Comma required
MvdV> decades ago and advertised by the PING flag is a very useful tool
^
Comma required
MvdV> in tracing and solving routing problems. This proposal is an update
MvdV> of the original specs and introduces the TRACE flag.


MvdV> 2. The problem
MvdV> --------------

MvdV> In the original specification as documented by Ward Dossche in the
MvdV> April 2001 Z2 nodelist trailer and the specification last documented
MvdV> in FTS-5001.006, the PING functionality contains two parts. PING and
^
Should be a comma
MvdV> TRACE. According to that specification systems flying the PING flag
^
Comma required
MvdV> should support both PING and TRACE functionality.

MvdV> Recent surveys by the author however have shown that not all systems
^
Comma required
MvdV> flying the PING flag also support the TRACE functionality. One could
MvdV> argue that current practise is that TRACE functionality is optional.

MvdV> Considering that the PING function alone is a very useful tool all
MvdV> by itself for both routing systems and leaf systems and that TRACE
MvdV> is only useful for routing systems, one may conclude that the above
MvdV> current practise works well, but that it is not complient with the
^
Comma not required
MvdV> original and current specs.


MvdV> 3. The Solution
MvdV> ---------------

MvdV> Split up the PING and TRACE functionality.


MvdV> PING
MvdV> ----

MvdV> Specified as exactly "PING" with no arguments. Nodes flying this
MvdV> flag will adhere to the following functionality:

MvdV> If a message destined to user "PING" (case insensitive) arrives
MvdV> at its final destination and this final destination flies the
MvdV> PING flag, then the receiving node will bounce the message back
MvdV> to the original sender clearly quoting all the original via
^
Comma required
MvdV> lines.

MvdV> If a message destined to "PING" arrives at its final destination
MvdV> but this final destination does _not_ fly the PING flag then the
^
Comma required
MvdV> message may be deleted from the system without further action.


MvdV> TRACE
MvdV> -----

MvdV> Specified as exactly "TRACE" with no arguments. Nodes flying this
MvdV> flag will adhere to the following functionality:

MvdV> If a message destined to user "PING" (case insensitive) arrives
MvdV> at a node which flies the TRACE flag but is merely passing
MvdV> through to another destination then the in-transit node will
^
Comma required
MvdV> notify the sender of this occurrence, clearly quoting the via
MvdV> lines, and forward the original mail unaltered towards its final
^
Comma not required
MvdV> destination.


MvdV> For both PING and TRACE responses, the sender's name must never
MvdV> be "PING" and the responses should never be addressed to "PING".


MvdV> 4. Considerations
MvdV> -----------------

MvdV> Making the TRACE function optional by seperating the flags, is an
^
Comma not required
MvdV> encouragement for developers and script writers to join the project.
MvdV> They can choose to only implement the PING functionality and leave
MvdV> TRACE functionality for later or ommit it completely without
^
Comma required
MvdV> violating the specs. This will hopefully make more sysops join
MvdV> the PING club.

MvdV> Splitting up the PING and TRACE functionality by introducing the
MvdV> TRACE flag is backward compatible. Systems flying the PING flag
MvdV> that do not support TRACE need do nothing, They are complient
^
Should be "t"
MvdV> with the new specs. Systems flying the PING flag that support
MvdV> both PING and TRACE functionality may add the TRACE flag to their
MvdV> listing. But if they do not, no harm is done, they are still
^ ^ ^ ^
Full stop not required and "B" should be "b" | |
| |
Comma should be a full stop and "t" should be "T"
MvdV> complient with the new specs, it just does not advertise all
MvdV> functionality.


MvdV> A. References
MvdV> -------------


MvdV> [FTS-5] "The distribution nodelist", Ben Baker, Rick Moore.
MvdV> February 1989. Obsoleted by FTS-5000.

MvdV> FTS-5000] "The distribution nodelist".
MvdV> FTSC Members, Administrator and Honoured Guests
MvdV> Januari 2014.

MvdV> [FTS-5001] "Nodelist flags and userflags".
MvdV> FTSC Members, Administrator and Honoured Guests
MvdV> Augustus 2017.

MvdV> A PING robot survey. Michiel van der Vlist
MvdV> Fidonews 38:07, 15 Februari 2021.

MvdV> Ping robot survey, a follow up. Michiel van der Vlist
MvdV> Fidonews 38:15, 12 April 2021.


MvdV> B. History
MvdV> ----------

MvdV> Rev,1, 2021-04-17: Initial release.


MvdV> C. Contact Data
MvdV> ---------------

MvdV> Michiel van der Vlist
MvdV> Fidonet: 2:280/5555
MvdV> E-mail: pa0mmv at vrza dot org


MvdV> === end ===


MvdV> Cheers, Michiel

MvdV> --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
MvdV> * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

That's all, have a nice day :))

Regards,
Martin

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Bitz-Box - Bradford - UK (2:250/1.333)

Hello Rob,

On Saturday April 17 2021 18:38, you wrote to me:

argue that current practise is that TRACE functionality is
optional.

Alternate spelling of "practice" there.

According to "The Shorter Oxford", "practise" with an 's' is the preferred spelling in the Queen's English.

What's the FTSC documentation standard regarding grammar and spelling?

AFAIK, there isn't any. Before the Brexit, I preferred the Queen's English over US English. Now I am inclined to advocate returning to French as the language for Post and Telecom...

Thank you for your input.

English spelling is a nightmare for non native speakers. The written and the spoken English almost seem two different languages. "Case" rhymes to "space". But why is the one spelled with an 's' and the other with a 'c'? And why does "ginger" not rhyme to "singer". And if "rhyme" rhymes to "slime", why is it not spelled "rime"? It is torture. ;-)

I will leave it to the Andrew to figure it out.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hello Martin,

On Sunday April 18 2021 09:43, you wrote to me:

That's all, have a nice day :))

Thank you for your input. As a non native English speaker I will now stand back and let the natives take over. ;-)


Cheers, Michiel


--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hello Nick,

On Saturday April 17 2021 15:17, you wrote to me:

Specified as exactly "TRACE" with no arguments. Nodes flying
this flag will adhere to the following functionality:

Added here.

I just tested it (again) and your robot does not show the via lines. The TRACE report does not even show the meta data of the message. It just says:

An In-transit PING request was received and forwarded onward.

That is so minimal it is practically useless..


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

On 18 Apr 21 14:10:44, Michiel Van Der Vlist said the following to Nick Andre:

An In-transit PING request was received and forwarded onward.

That is so minimal it is practically useless..

Well let me see what I can do, so you can stop being a dick.

Nick
--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Hello Michiel!

** On Sunday 18.04.21 - 11:25, you wrote to Rob Swindell:

Alternate spelling of "practice" there.

According to "The Shorter Oxford", "practise" with an
's' is the preferred spelling in the Queen's English.

practise is a verb and practice is a noun.

English spelling is a nightmare for non native speakers..
The written and the spoken English almost seem two
different languages. "Case" rhymes to "space". But why is
the one spelled with an 's' and the other with a 'c'?

Or.. even face, not fase. :( And there's vase, sometimes
pronounced VAAZ.

And why does "ginger" not rhyme to "singer". And if "rhyme"
rhymes to "slime", why is it not spelled "rime"? It is
torture. ;-)

You CAN pronounce ginger as in singer. You'd be the life of the
party! I know people who play around with words like that all
the time. It's unexpected and hilarious. You can even embellish
it by changing the emPHAsis on a differnet sylLABle.

I get a kick out of how frech-canadians pronounce develop: de-
ve-LUP. Where as the englaise prounce it: de-VEL-up.

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.49
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)

Hello Michiel!

** On Sunday 18.04.21 - 13:39, you wrote to Martin Foster:

That's all, have a nice day :))

Thank you for your input. As a non native English speaker I
will now stand back and let the natives take over. ;-)

From what I could tell in the short video clip that Ward posted
on a sysop gathering a while ago, your spoken english was pretty
good. But your written english is horrendous, as noted. ;)

My first language wasn't english either. Growing up my english/
latvian seemed like one language to me.

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.49
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)

Hello Nick,

On Sunday April 18 2021 09:09, you wrote to me:

Well let me see what I can do, so you can stop being a dick.

Zone,1,North_America_(108),Toronto,Nick_Andre,1-647-847-2083,9600,CM,XX, INA:bbs.darkrealms.ca,IBN,PING,TRACE

Arrived here. ;-)


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Good ${greeting_time}, Michiel!

18 Apr 2021 11:25:32, you wrote to Rob Swindell:

argue that current practise is that TRACE functionality is
optional.

Alternate spelling of "practice" there.

MvdV> According to "The Shorter Oxford", "practise" with an 's' is the
MvdV> preferred spelling in the Queen's English.

I prefer to see something more practical...
^

What's the FTSC documentation standard regarding grammar and
spelling?

MvdV> AFAIK, there isn't any. Before the Brexit, I preferred the Queen's
MvdV> English over US English.

As a native speaker of non-germanic language, I can't tell for sure... some words are simplified in US English (compared to British), but some are really garbled.

MvdV> Now I am inclined to advocate returning to French as the language
MvdV> for Post and Telecom...

That's almost impossible. English is a leader by a number of native speakers (hint: India), and has only one strong competitor: Chinese.

MvdV> Thank you for your input. English spelling is a nightmare for non
MvdV> native speakers. The written and the spoken English almost seem two
MvdV> different languages. "Case" rhymes to "space". But why is the one
MvdV> spelled with an 's' and the other with a 'c'? And why does "ginger"
MvdV> not rhyme to "singer". And if "rhyme" rhymes to "slime", why is it
MvdV> not spelled "rime"? It is torture. ;-)

"Take "gh" as in "enough", "o" as in "women" and "ti" and in "nation" - and "fish" would have "ghoti" as a correct spelling."

MvdV> I will leave it to the Andrew to figure it out.

And other native speakers... hopefully they were good enough during their school-days, so they can serve as a Grammar-Police here :-)


--
Alexey V. Vissarionov aka Gremlin from Kremlin
gremlin.ru!gremlin; +vii-cmiii-ccxxix-lxxix-xlii

... that's why I really dislike fools.
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"Take "gh" as in "enough", "o" as in "women" and "ti" and in "nation" -
and "fish" would have "ghoti" as a correct spelling."

Oh dear, not again. I've been hearing thatone now for 56 years.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Apr.15 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)