Hello everybody!

For years there has been a shortage of qualified candidates for the FTSC.
There are several reasons for this, technical, political, and personal.

At this time, we can no longer afford to turn away qualified candidates who have expressed a willingness to serve on technicalities.

1. Tim is actively involved in FidoNet.
2. Tim is a developer of FidoNet compatible software which is even now being actively maintained and updated.
3. Tim can be reached via NetMail sent to the listed address.

As FTSC Administrator & Election Coordinator, I have accepted Tim's nomination.
Anyone who objects to his inclusion in the candidates is welcome to encourage their RC to vote "No" when the time comes.

Regards,

Andrew

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Phoenix BBS * phoenix.bnbbbs.net (1:320/219)

Hello Andrew!

Saturday February 19 2022 07:14, you wrote to All:

Hello everybody!

For years there has been a shortage of qualified candidates for the
FTSC. There are several reasons for this, technical, political, and personal.

At this time, we can no longer afford to turn away qualified
candidates who have expressed a willingness to serve on
technicalities.

1. Tim is actively involved in FidoNet.
2. Tim is a developer of FidoNet compatible software which is even
now being actively maintained and updated. 3. Tim can be reached via NetMail sent to the listed address.

As FTSC Administrator & Election Coordinator, I have accepted Tim's nomination.
Anyone who objects to his inclusion in the candidates is welcome to encourage their RC to vote "No" when the time comes.

Fully agree.



Vincent

--- Mageia Linux v8 X64/Mbse v1.0.7.24/GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Air Applewood, The Linux Gateway to the UK & Eire (2:250/1)

Hi Andrew,

On 2022-02-19 07:14:06, you wrote to All:

For years there has been a shortage of qualified candidates for the
FTSC. There are several reasons for this, technical, political, and personal.

At this time, we can no longer afford to turn away qualified candidates who
have expressed a willingness to serve on technicalities.

1. Tim is actively involved in FidoNet.
2. Tim is a developer of FidoNet compatible software which is even now being actively maintained and updated. 3. Tim can be reached via NetMail sent to the listed address.

As FTSC Administrator & Election Coordinator, I have accepted Tim's nomination.

I don't mind Tim becoming a FTSC member. I think he could be a valued member.

I do mind you setting the precedent the rules don't matter, because you do what you want anyway, when it suits you. That's how they do things in failed countries.

Anyone who objects to his inclusion in the candidates is welcome to encourage their RC to vote "No" when the time comes.

That's not how it works! The elections will be invalid as a whole, because the rules weren't followed. If I where Tim I wouldn't want to be elected this way, because there always be this "bad smell" to his membership... It would be better if he would withdraw his candidacy, and run next year, when there would be plenty of time to do things the right way. It's not like there will be happening shocking things in the next year regarding the FTSC, that he would miss because of his delayed membership...


Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Re: Re: 2022 FTSC Standing Member Election - Eligibility of Tim Schattkows
By: Wilfred van Velzen to Andrew Leary on Sat Feb 19 2022 04:30 pm

I do mind you setting the precedent the rules don't matter, because you do what you want anyway, when it suits you. That's how they do things in failed countries.

I don't think that's an appropriate comparison: FidoNet is and never has been anything resembling a country.

Anyone who objects to his inclusion in the candidates is welcome to encourage their RC to vote "No" when the time comes.

That's not how it works! The elections will be invalid as a whole, because the rules weren't followed. If I where Tim I wouldn't want to be elected this way, because there always be this "bad smell" to his membership... It would be better if he would withdraw his candidacy, and run next year, when there would be plenty of time to do things the right way. It's not like there will be happening shocking things in the next year regarding the FTSC, that he would miss because of his delayed membership...

I think some of us are taking this just a bit too seriously.
--
digital man (rob)

Rush quote #15:
I can't pretend a stranger is a long-awaited friend
Norco, CA WX: 78.7øF, 14.0% humidity, 0 mph ENE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)

Hey Rob!

I don't think that's an appropriate comparison: FidoNet is and
never has been anything resembling a country.

I think the analogy is perfect.

I think some of us are taking this just a bit too seriously.

Hopefully the ones that make the final decision take it more seriously.

Speaking as a nodelisted sysop, I agree with the policy as it stands and believe that Tim should stand down in respect for his fellow nodelisted sysops.

Life is good,
Maurice

... Blind byþ bam eagum se þe breostum ne starat.
He is blind in both eyes who does not look with the heart.
--- GNU bash, version 5.1.16(1)-release (x86_64-moosile-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

I don't think that's an appropriate comparison: FidoNet is and never has been anything resembling a country.

Well maybe if we're talking about North Sentinel Island is does.

I think some of us are taking this just a bit too seriously.

It reminds me a lot of amateur radio clubs. Robert's Rules and politics because prior to the internet and cellphones it was needed... There were a ton of people in radio back then.

Fido and BBSing feel similar. There just aren't that many of us anymore. We can probably go a bit more lightweight with rules and politics than we needed to back in the 80s and 90s.


- Andre
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: Radio Mentor BBS - bbs.radiomentor.org (1:154/70)

Hello Wilfred,

19 Feb 22 16:30, you wrote to Andrew Leary:

I do mind you setting the precedent the rules don't matter, because
you do what you want anyway, when it suits you. That's how they do
things in failed countries.

Have you done anything with FMail besides put your name in the "about" screen?

LOL

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Outpost BBS * Johnson City, TN (1:18/200)

Maurice,

Speaking as a nodelisted sysop, I agree with the policy as it stands and believe that Tim should stand down in respect for his fellow nodelisted sysops.

I think that as a sitting member of the FTSC, not commenting about what a future member should or should not do, cannot be improved.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Feb 12 2022
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Rob,

I think some of us are taking this just a bit too seriously.

100%

--- DB4 - Feb 12 2022
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hey Ward!

Speaking as a nodelisted sysop,

I think that as a sitting member of the FTSC, not commenting
about what a future member should or should not do, cannot be
improved.

Agreed. Good thing I had the sense to start my "comments" in this particular echoarea with the "Speaking as a nodelisted sysop" disclaimer. I believe I am a nodelisted sysop first in this echoarea (FTSC_PUBLIC) but I think adding the disclaimer when appropriate isn't a bad idea.

I stand by my words regardless of the outcome which is beyond my control as either a currently sitting member or the humble but extremely capable nodelisted Fidonet sysop that is me.

Life is good,
Maurice

... Wene þec þy betran, efn elne þis a þenden þu lifge.
Train yourself for the better way, ever with courage as long as you live. --- GNU bash, version 5.1.16(1)-release (x86_64-moosile-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hello Andrew,

On Saturday February 19 2022 07:14, you wrote to All:

For years there has been a shortage of qualified candidates for the
FTSC. There are several reasons for this, technical, political, and personal.

At this time, we can no longer afford to turn away qualified
candidates who have expressed a willingness to serve on
technicalities.

1) Changing the rules during the game is alway a no-no, no matter the intentions.

2) The requirement that FTSC members run a fully fledged fidonet node i.e. a node that can make outgoing calls AND accept incoming calls to and from other fidonet nodes is a technical requirement, not a technicality.

3) There are good reasons that these technical requirements are laid down in the rule that candidates MUST accept their nomination with a message originating from their listed node which was nodelist before the start of the elections. It serves to check that the candidate actually runs an operational node and it also serves to prevent "ghost nodes" to be created on the fly for the occasion. As is happening now...

4) Ommitting the Pvt keyword for a node that advertises no contact information is in violation of FTS-5000. The FTSC going along with such a violation of their own standards is not a technicallity.

5) In fact none of the above can be side swept as "technicalities". Waiving rules because the rule is not convenient under the circumstances at hand sets a precedent and precendents have the nasty habit of biting one in the back one day. Also, waiving technical requirements because it is not convenenient is not what one would expect of a Technical committee.

6) Calling technical requirements "technicallities" may lead Fidonet members to think that the 'T' in "FTSC" does not stand for "Technical" but for "Technicalities". Why should fidonet members and developers follow Fidonet Technical Standards if the FTSC itself does not follow them and labels them as "technicalities" because that is more convenient? And why should capable and willing people put time and energy in documenting standards that can be ignored as "technicalities when convenient? The FTSC is digging its own grave by not following its own rules.

Considering the above, I object to the candidacy of Tim Schattkowsky. It is nothing personal, but he does not qualify by the rules that we have agreed on. It would be better to follow the procedure and let him go through the learning curve of running a fully fledged node in a normal net so that next year he can be a qualified candiate. I agree with Wilfred and Maurice.



Cheers, Michiel

--- Fmail, Binkd, Golded
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

On 2022 Feb 21 12:21:30, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to you:

I agree with Wilfred and Maurice.

as strange as this may seem to some, so do i... i also agree with michiel and all of his points...

at best, i can see the process being challenged after the vote phase... during "validation" phase? i don't remember what that phase is called and don't easily lay my hands on the process steps, ATM...

)\/(ark

"The soul of a small kitten in the body of a mighty dragon. Look on my majesty, ye mighty, and despair! Or bring me catnip. Your choice. Oooh, a shiny thing!"
... I'd explain it to you, but your brain would explode.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

Hi Rob,

On 2022-02-19 12:43:43, you wrote to me:

I think some of us are taking this just a bit too seriously.

Indeed, why have this yearly election circus, with rules and nominations, when every candidate always gets elected anyway. It would be simpler and save everybody a lot of time if any volunteer just would get accepted...

Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Hi Sean,

On 2022-02-19 13:13:56, you wrote to me:

I do mind you setting the precedent the rules don't matter, because
you do what you want anyway, when it suits you. That's how they do
things in failed countries.

Have you done anything with FMail besides put your name in the "about" screen?

[Suggestive question with a negative undertone, having nothing to do with the subject at hand (And you are still wondering why people don't like you?), I can do that too.]


Like you did with MBSE? No... And apparently you have no clue about versioning systems?


Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Hello Michiel van der Vlist!

** On Monday 21.02.22 - 12:21, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Andrew Leary:

MvdV> 1) Changing the rules during the game is alway a no-no, no matter the
MvdV> intentions.

But why can't the rules adjust and accomdate "the times" as
circumstances change? Even the contracts that we sign and UA's
that we agree to have "subject to change without notice".. and
that is also done for valid reasons.


MvdV> 2) The requirement that FTSC members run a fully fledged fidonet node
MvdV> i.e. a node that can make outgoing calls AND accept incoming calls to
MvdV> and from other fidonet nodes is a technical requirement, not a
MvdV> technicality.

Yes.. a fully fledged node is a technical thing, but is that
required for the actual job? Do the rules state that the FTSC
member must have a consistently nodelisted system, or is that
just during the nominations/voting system. The whole thing
seems a bit pedantic or anal.


MvdV> 3) There are good reasons that these technical requirements are laid
MvdV> down in the rule that candidates MUST accept their nomination with a
MvdV> message originating from their listed node which was nodelist before
MvdV> the start of the elections. It serves to check that the candidate
MvdV> actually runs an operational node and it also serves to prevent "ghost
MvdV> nodes" to be created on the fly for the occasion. As is happening
MvdV> now...

Again.. so that is JUSt during the voting period?


MvdV> 4) Ommitting the Pvt keyword for a node that advertises no contact
MvdV> information is in violation of FTS-5000. The FTSC going along with such
MvdV> a violation of their own standards is not a technicallity.

Why can't the node enable full operations during nominations
period and revert back to Pvt when suitable?


MvdV> 5) In fact ..

MvdV> 6) Calling technical requirements "technicallities" ..

5) and 6) seem similar and verbose. ;) Man.. you got the gift
of gab, for sure!


--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.51
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)

Hello Wilfred van Velzen!

** On Monday 21.02.22 - 12:14, Wilfred van Velzen wrote to Rob Swindell:

I think some of us are taking this just a bit too seriously.

Indeed, why have this yearly election circus, with rules and
nominations, when every candidate always gets elected anyway. It would
be simpler and save everybody a lot of time if any volunteer just would get accepted...

Why can't the membership/club be dynamic? Accept people as they
become available and let them go when circumstances arise?

Who came up with "the rules?"? Do the rules say thou must not
EVER change the rules?

Sounds like Tim would be a wonderful asset. The opportunity is
now. Next year may be too late.

There seems to be more documentation and effort in the voting
process for members than the actual ftsc activity.

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.51
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)

Hi August,

On 2022-02-21 12:29:00, you wrote to me:

I think some of us are taking this just a bit too seriously.

Indeed, why have this yearly election circus, with rules and
nominations, when every candidate always gets elected anyway. It
would be simpler and save everybody a lot of time if any volunteer
just would get accepted...

Why can't the membership/club be dynamic? Accept people as they
become available and let them go when circumstances arise?

Sounds good to me...

Who came up with "the rules?"? Do the rules say thou must not
EVER change the rules?

Start reading here: http://ftsc.org/docs/fta-1001.007

Where the actual election rules come from I don't know, they are probably copied from previous elections by the FTSC chair person...

Sounds like Tim would be a wonderful asset.

Sure, but he doesn't qualify according to the current rules.

The opportunity is now. Next year may be too late.

If it is that time critical he wouldn't be a good member. The election is for a 2 year period as member!

There seems to be more documentation and effort in the voting
process for members than the actual ftsc activity.

Unfortunately you seem to be right, but we don't know what is going on in the private FTSC conversations. But the result in documentation is minimal...

Bye, Wilfred.

--- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
* Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)

Wilfred,

Sounds like Tim would be a wonderful asset.

Sure, but he doesn't qualify according to the current rules.

I bet that if we go through P4 we probably would find wording to disqualify you from Fidonet.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - Feb 20 2022
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello August,

On Monday February 21 2022 11:22, you wrote to me:

MvdV>> 2) The requirement that FTSC members run a fully fledged fidonet
MvdV>> node i.e. a node that can make outgoing calls AND accept incoming
MvdV>> calls to and from other fidonet nodes is a technical requirement,
MvdV>> not a technicality.

Yes.. a fully fledged node is a technical thing, but is that
required for the actual job?

YES! It should go without saying that to be a member of the FTSC, one must be a fully qualified Fidonet member.

Do the rules state that the FTSC member must have a consistently nodelisted system, or is that just during the nominations/voting
system. The whole thing seems a bit pedantic or anal.

You know what? If I qualify as pedantic or anal in your eyes, I may as well live up to the reputation. So...

Running a Fidonet node isn't as hard as it used to be. You do not need a phone line any more, you do not need to spend a couple of hundred bucks for a modem. All you need is an internet connection and a computer that runs a fidonet mailer, tosser and editor. All of that you probably already have, when you run a point system.

So have your system run 24/7, configure it to accept incoming calls and apply for a node number. Then we will talk again.


Cheers, Michiel

--- Fmail, Binkd, Golded
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

Hello Michiel van der Vlist!

** On Tuesday 22.02.22 - 15:28, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to August Abolins:

MvdV> So have your system run 24/7, configure it to accept incoming calls and
MvdV> apply for a node number. Then we will talk again.

Great. Dodging the questions. You know that the "rules" can
be ridiculous, but you are stuck not wanting to consider common
sense.

I'll (or anyone else) will talk when compelled to. Not when you
tell anyone to.
--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.51
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)