I'm currently running a Pi2, which has a BME280 (via a hat) and a SSD attached to it. The Pi is now starting to struggle to generate graphs
for my home website, so I'm thinking of swapping it for a Pi4. A
rummage online doesn't seem to fully answer my questions.
Apart from the Pi4, to upgrade, I know that I will need a bigger power
supply and a HDMI adapter lead, but after, things are a bit vague. Can
I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling, or do I need a
heat sink or fan, and if so, how do they get on with the hat ? The
space it is in has had a temperature range of -1 to 40 degrees C, the
mean across that time is about 15.5C.
I'm currently running a Pi2, which has a BME280 (via a hat) and a SSD attached to it. The Pi is now starting to struggle to generate graphs
for my home website, so I'm thinking of swapping it for a Pi4. A
rummage online doesn't seem to fully answer my questions.
Apart from the Pi4, to upgrade, I know that I will need a bigger power
supply and a HDMI adapter lead, but after, things are a bit vague. Can
I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling, or do I need a
heat sink or fan, and if so, how do they get on with the hat ? The
space it is in has had a temperature range of -1 to 40 degrees C, the
mean across that time is about 15.5C.
TIA
Adrian
- a bigger power
- a HDMI adapter
Can I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling
I'm currently running a Pi2, which has a BME280 (via a hat) and a SSD attached to it. The Pi is now starting to struggle to generate graphs
for my home website, so I'm thinking of swapping it for a Pi4. A
rummage online doesn't seem to fully answer my questions.
Apart from the Pi4, to upgrade, I know that I will need a bigger power
supply and a HDMI adapter lead, but after, things are a bit vague. Can
I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling, or do I need a
heat sink or fan, and if so, how do they get on with the hat ? The
space it is in has had a temperature range of -1 to 40 degrees C, the
mean across that time is about 15.5C.
TIA
Adrian
Adrian <bulleid@ku.gro.lioff> wrote:
I'm currently running a Pi2, which has a BME280 (via a hat) and a SSDIf you're buying the Pi4 then why not go for a Pi5, there's very
attached to it. The Pi is now starting to struggle to generate graphs
for my home website, so I'm thinking of swapping it for a Pi4. A
rummage online doesn't seem to fully answer my questions.
little difference in the price.
I've run two Pi4 systems without heatsink or fan for a very long time
with no issues at all. I've just looked at one of them, it's been
running at least since May 2023. As I understand it anyway the
system will simply slow down if it thinks it's getting too hot.
On 09/04/2024 13:52, Adrian wrote:
I'm currently running a Pi2, which has a BME280 (via a hat) and a SSD
attached to it. The Pi is now starting to struggle to generate graphs
for my home website, so I'm thinking of swapping it for a Pi4. A
rummage online doesn't seem to fully answer my questions.
Apart from the Pi4, to upgrade, I know that I will need a bigger power
supply and a HDMI adapter lead, but after, things are a bit vague. Can
I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling, or do I need a
heat sink or fan, and if so, how do they get on with the hat ? The
space it is in has had a temperature range of -1 to 40 degrees C, the
mean across that time is about 15.5C.
TIA
Adrian
Adrian,
No problem with the other suggestions.
When you say "starting to struggle" what have you measured? Are you
running out of memory, CPU power, disk I/O, or network I/O? I think it would be useful to know what exactly in your system needs changing.
It's possible that a Pi 3B+ might be a sufficient upgrade (but can you
still get them?).
The Pi-5 creates quite a bit more heat than the Pi 4, and has some
software compatibility issues, so unless you really need the 5, stick to
the 4. (I have both here).
has a heatsink and keyboard built in. I have a couple here and have
been very pleased with them. One even runs both Windows and Linux,
that's using the Twister OS. It uses about 2 GB of its 4 GB memory, and averages 10-12% CPU.
On 09/04/2024 13:52, Adrian wrote:
I'm currently running a Pi2, which has a BME280 (via a hat) and a SSD
attached to it. The Pi is now starting to struggle to generate graphs
for my home website, so I'm thinking of swapping it for a Pi4. A
rummage online doesn't seem to fully answer my questions.
Apart from the Pi4, to upgrade, I know that I will need a bigger
power
supply and a HDMI adapter lead, but after, things are a bit vague. Can
I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling, or do I need a
heat sink or fan, and if so, how do they get on with the hat ? The
space it is in has had a temperature range of -1 to 40 degrees C, the
mean across that time is about 15.5C.
TIA
Adrian
Adrian,
No problem with the other suggestions.
When you say "starting to struggle" what have you measured? Are you
running out of memory, CPU power, disk I/O, or network I/O? I think it
would be useful to know what exactly in your system needs changing.
It's possible that a Pi 3B+ might be a sufficient upgrade (but can you
still get them?).
On 09/04/2024 14:11, Chris Green wrote:
Adrian <bulleid@ku.gro.lioff> wrote:
I'm currently running a Pi2, which has a BME280 (via a hat) and a SSDIf you're buying the Pi4 then why not go for a Pi5, there's very
attached to it. The Pi is now starting to struggle to generate graphs
for my home website, so I'm thinking of swapping it for a Pi4. A
rummage online doesn't seem to fully answer my questions.
little difference in the price.
nearly twice the price for entry level.
On 09/04/2024 13:52, Adrian wrote:
I'm currently running a Pi2, which has a BME280 (via a hat) and a SSD attached to it. The Pi is now starting to struggle to generate graphs
for my home website, so I'm thinking of swapping it for a Pi4. A
rummage online doesn't seem to fully answer my questions.
Apart from the Pi4, to upgrade, I know that I will need a bigger power supply and a HDMI adapter lead, but after, things are a bit vague. Can
I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling, or do I need a
heat sink or fan, and if so, how do they get on with the hat ? The
space it is in has had a temperature range of -1 to 40 degrees C, the
mean across that time is about 15.5C.
TIA
Adrian
Adrian,
No problem with the other suggestions.
When you say "starting to struggle" what have you measured? Are you running out of memory, CPU power, disk I/O, or network I/O? I think it would be useful
to know what exactly in your system needs changing.
It's possible that a Pi 3B+ might be a sufficient upgrade (but can you still get them?).
The Pi-5 creates quite a bit more heat than the Pi 4, and has some software compatibility issues, so unless you really need the 5, stick to the 4. (I have
both here). If you are not running headless, the Pi 400 has a heatsink and keyboard built in. I have a couple here and have been very pleased with them.
One even runs both Windows and Linux, that's using the Twister OS. It uses about 2 GB of its 4 GB memory, and averages 10-12% CPU.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 09/04/2024 14:11, Chris Green wrote:Pi Hut:-
Adrian <bulleid@ku.gro.lioff> wrote:
I'm currently running a Pi2, which has a BME280 (via a hat) and a SSDIf you're buying the Pi4 then why not go for a Pi5, there's very
attached to it. The Pi is now starting to struggle to generate graphs >>>> for my home website, so I'm thinking of swapping it for a Pi4. A
rummage online doesn't seem to fully answer my questions.
little difference in the price.
nearly twice the price for entry level.
4Gb Pi 5 - £58.50
4Gb Pi 4 - £55.00
1Gb Pi 4 - £35.00
You can't get a 1Gb Pi 5, until recently you couldn't get a 1Gb Pi 4.
If I was buying a Pi 4 now I wouldn't go for a 1Gb one.
That's quite a lot of time for rendering. What I do is on the Pi is run
a Python uwsgi program which process all the data which has been stored
in sqlite3 databases, producing a bit of HTML and Javacript which
utilises google charts to the the plotting. The processing takes the Pi
4B under a second, and can plot the data itself in Chromium in a few
seconds, but I mainly access it from faster Linux boxes, where
rendering of the google charts in almost instant.
Perhaps you could also perform the rendering on a meatier machine too.
On 09/04/2024 13:52, Adrian wrote:
Apart from the Pi4, to upgrade, I know that I will need a bigger
power supply and a HDMI adapter lead, but after, things are a bit
vague. Can I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling, or
do I need a heat sink or fan, and if so, how do they get on with the
hat ? The space it is in has had a temperature range of -1 to 40
degrees C, the mean across that time is about 15.5C.
40C is quite a high ambient temperature. If you are going to run the Pi
4B hard with the likes of matplotlib, passive cooling my not be enough
to stop it throttling. One of mine has a large heat sink case with no
fan and never goes over 60C, but that's at a 20C ambient. For 40C
ambient, I would recommend a fan case, go for a 40mm fan if you want it
to be quiet, 30mm ones can be noisy.
On 09/04/2024 13:52, Adrian wrote:
Apart from the Pi4, to upgrade, I know that I will need a bigger power
supply and a HDMI adapter lead, but after, things are a bit vague.
Can I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling, or do I
need a heat sink or fan, and if so, how do they get on with the hat ?
The space it is in has had a temperature range of -1 to 40 degrees C,
the mean across that time is about 15.5C.
40C is quite a high ambient temperature. If you are going to run the Pi
4B hard with the likes of matplotlib, passive cooling my not be enough
to stop it throttling. One of mine has a large heat sink case with no
fan and never goes over 60C, but that's at a 20C ambient. For 40C
ambient, I would recommend a fan case, go for a 40mm fan if you want it
to be quiet, 30mm ones can be noisy.
---druck
In message <uv4991$efer$2@dont-email.me>, druck <news@druck.org.uk>
writes
That's quite a lot of time for rendering. What I do is on the Pi is run
a Python uwsgi program which process all the data which has been stored
in sqlite3 databases, producing a bit of HTML and Javacript which
utilises google charts to the the plotting. The processing takes the Pi
4B under a second, and can plot the data itself in Chromium in a few >seconds, but I mainly access it from faster Linux boxes, where
rendering of the google charts in almost instant.
Perhaps you could also perform the rendering on a meatier machine too.
I did think about that, but that would mean leaving one of my PCs on
24x7 which I'm not keen on.
On 09/04/2024 13:52, Adrian wrote:
Apart from the Pi4, to upgrade, I know that I will need a bigger power
supply and a HDMI adapter lead, but after, things are a bit vague.
Can I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling, or do I
need a heat sink or fan, and if so, how do they get on with the hat ?
The space it is in has had a temperature range of -1 to 40 degrees C,
the mean across that time is about 15.5C.
40C is quite a high ambient temperature.
4B hard with the likes of matplotlib, passive cooling my not be enough
to stop it throttling.
One of mine has a large heat sink case with no
fan and never goes over 60C, but that's at a 20C ambient. For 40C
ambient, I would recommend a fan case, go for a 40mm fan if you want it
to be quiet, 30mm ones can be noisy.
40 was probably a one off (heat wave), but mid 30s occur every summer
month.
I've been looking at fan cases, but they all seem to prevent the use of
the HAT, which means I won't be able to find out what the ambient
temperature is. I suppose I could design one of my own
On 09/04/2024 22:19, Adrian wrote:
40 was probably a one off (heat wave), but mid 30s occur every summer >>month.
I've been looking at fan cases, but they all seem to prevent the use
of the HAT, which means I won't be able to find out what the ambient >>temperature is. I suppose I could design one of my own
Seriously, you don't need a fan.
Just a *ventilated* case.
I am designing a case for mine right now, featuring a complete grille
in one end wall.
Experience shows that as long as hot air can escape and draw in cooler
air, all will be well
In message <cuuhek-vqs4.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> writes
Get a PC that's as low powered as a Pi, there are such beasts around >nowadays and you can even find quite cheap refurbished ones. I like >Fujitsu Esprimos, my desktop machine is an Esprimo P910 which is
getting rather long in the tooth now (and consumes 18 watts at idle).
I'm getting an Esprimo Q957 to replace it, that idles at about 5
watts. There are lots of different models with different capabilities
and you can find even lower power ones than the Q957.
Thanks. An interesting looking little beastie, but the only place I
could find selling them was Currys, and they appear to be for trade
sales only.
Get a PC that's as low powered as a Pi, there are such beasts around
nowadays and you can even find quite cheap refurbished ones. I like
Fujitsu Esprimos, my desktop machine is an Esprimo P910 which is
getting rather long in the tooth now (and consumes 18 watts at idle).
I'm getting an Esprimo Q957 to replace it, that idles at about 5
watts. There are lots of different models with different capabilities
and you can find even lower power ones than the Q957.
In message <uv5lop$s7bl$2@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes
On 09/04/2024 22:19, Adrian wrote:
40 was probably a one off (heat wave), but mid 30s occur every summer
month.
I've been looking at fan cases, but they all seem to prevent the use
of the HAT, which means I won't be able to find out what the ambient
temperature is. I suppose I could design one of my own
Seriously, you don't need a fan.
Just a *ventilated* case.
I am designing a case for mine right now, featuring a complete grille
in one end wall.
Experience shows that as long as hot air can escape and draw in cooler
air, all will be well
Thanks.
There appear to be several likely looking cases on Thingiverse (other
sites available), so I suspect that I'll download one of those, and if
needs be tweak it for my needs.
Adrian
I'll try and post mine somewhere. Finished it last night,. It's working
well with two SSDS and a chip temp of around 65°C-75°C dependent on load.
$ vcgencmd measure_temp
temp=68.1'C
I'll try and post mine somewhere. Finished it last night,. It's working
well with two SSDS and a chip temp of around 65C-75C dependent on
load.
Can you tweak STLs?
Pi4, power supply and HDMI lead on order. I was hoping that they would >arrive today, but DHL seem to think that they would prefer to spend
their day at their local depot.
On 10/04/2024 10:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/04/2024 22:19, Adrian wrote:
40 was probably a one off (heat wave), but mid 30s occur every summer
month.
I've been looking at fan cases, but they all seem to prevent the use
of the HAT, which means I won't be able to find out what the ambient
temperature is.?? I suppose I could design one of my own
Seriously, you don't need a fan.
Just a *ventilated* case.
I am designing a case for mine right now, featuring a complete grille in
one end wall.
Experience shows that as long as hot air can escape and draw in cooler
air, all will be well
The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is anything other than sitting idle all the time.
I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan
will keep it at full speed under any load.
On 10/04/2024 10:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/04/2024 22:19, Adrian wrote:
40 was probably a one off (heat wave), but mid 30s occur every summer
month.
I've been looking at fan cases, but they all seem to prevent the use
of the HAT, which means I won't be able to find out what the ambient
temperature is. I suppose I could design one of my own
Seriously, you don't need a fan.
Just a *ventilated* case.
I am designing a case for mine right now, featuring a complete grille
in one end wall.
Experience shows that as long as hot air can escape and draw in cooler
air, all will be well
The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is anything other than sitting idle all the time.
I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan
will keep it at full speed under any load.
---druck
The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is anything other than sitting idle all the time.
I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan
will keep it at full speed under any load.
The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is >anything other than sitting idle all the time.
I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan
will keep it at full speed under any load.
In message <BgBGXbDiy9FmFwYk@ku.gro.lloiff>, Adrian
<bulleid@ku.gro.lioff> writes
Pi4, power supply and HDMI lead on order. I was hoping that they
would arrive today, but DHL seem to think that they would prefer to
spend their day at their local depot.
After spending a day at the depot, it was sent out for delivery today. >According to the 07:58 email, it should have been with me between 10:19
and 11:19. According to the tracking site, at 10:30 I was the next
drop. At 14:20 I gave up waiting and went out. Parcel arrived at
14:40, and was left next to the front door, fortunately not obvious
from the road.
Work is now underway to install the software etc. on the new Pi.
Thanks again for all the help.
Adrian
On 14/04/2024 20:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/04/2024 19:51, druck wrote:
The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if itI am not interested in proof by assertion
is anything other than sitting idle all the time.
I had mine up to 130% on 'top' and it never made more than 76°C
So you were only using 1 and a bit cores, hardly taxing it.
I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensiveI question that it will in fact throttle.
fan will keep it at full speed under any load.
If you do something which uses multiple cores it will.
Like so much 'everybody knows' when you look at it it is in fact
'everyone believes because people selling fans told them so.
I'm telling you so, and I'm not selling you a fan, although I do have a bridge going spare if you don't believe that.
The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is anything other than sitting idle all the time.
I am not interested in proof by assertion
I had mine up to 130% on 'top' and it never made more than 76°C
I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan
will keep it at full speed under any load.
I question that it will in fact throttle.
Like so much 'everybody knows' when you look at it it is in fact
'everyone believes because people selling fans told them so.
The whole point of ARM is its lower power and lack of need for forced
cooling
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it isI am not interested in proof by assertion
anything other than sitting idle all the time.
I had mine up to 130% on 'top' and it never made more than 76°C
You do know that 'top' won't show throttling? Throttling means the CPU is clocked lower than the maximum frequency to reduce heat generation - top
will still show '100%' of CPU (for one core) but that will be 100% of a
lower clock speed.
cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_cur_freq
shows you the current clock of CPU core 0 and:
sudo vcgencmd get_throttled
will tell you the throttling status:
#### get_throttled
Returns the throttled state of the system. This is a bit pattern.
| Bit | Meaning |
|:---:|---------|
| 0 | Under-voltage detected |
| 1 | Arm frequency capped |
| 2 | Currently throttled |
| 3 | Soft temperature limit active |
| 16 | Under-voltage has occurred |
| 17 | Arm frequency capped has occurred |
| 18 | Throttling has occurred |
| 19 | Soft temperature limit has occurred
For example if I run 'stress -c 4' then get_throttled gives me: throttled=0xe0008
so the temperature limit is in operation and throttling has occurred in the past. (this Pi4 has cooling, I can't remember but I think there's a
heatsink and fan in there)
$ sudo vcgencmd measure_temp
temp=84.7'C
so it's up near its thermal limit.
I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fanI question that it will in fact throttle.
will keep it at full speed under any load.
Like so much 'everybody knows' when you look at it it is in fact
'everyone believes because people selling fans told them so.
'Everybody knows' because they have evidence, not assertions.
The whole point of ARM is its lower power and lack of need for forced
cooling
Everyone's been thermally limited for maybe 15 years, it's just that Arm cores have traditionally targeted a lower thermal envelope in devices where forced air cooling isn't an option. The way this works is that CPUs work until they hit their thermal envelope and then throttle. No popular application processor for maybe a couple of decades has been able to power all the silicon at once to max performance and stay within the thermal budget.
On 16/04/2024 10:59, Theo wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is >>>> anything other than sitting idle all the time.I am not interested in proof by assertion
I had mine up to 130% on 'top' and it never made more than 76°C
You do know that 'top' won't show throttling? Throttling means the
CPU is
clocked lower than the maximum frequency to reduce heat generation - top
will still show '100%' of CPU (for one core) but that will be 100% of a
lower clock speed.
cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_cur_freq
shows you the current clock of CPU core 0 and:
sudo vcgencmd get_throttled
will tell you the throttling status:
#### get_throttled
Returns the throttled state of the system. This is a bit pattern.
| Bit | Meaning |
|:---:|---------|
| 0 | Under-voltage detected |
| 1 | Arm frequency capped |
| 2 | Currently throttled |
| 3 | Soft temperature limit active |
| 16 | Under-voltage has occurred |
| 17 | Arm frequency capped has occurred |
| 18 | Throttling has occurred |
| 19 | Soft temperature limit has occurred
For example if I run 'stress -c 4' then get_throttled gives me:
throttled=0xe0008
so the temperature limit is in operation and throttling has occurred
in the
past. (this Pi4 has cooling, I can't remember but I think there's a
heatsink and fan in there)
$ sudo vcgencmd measure_temp
temp=84.7'C
so it's up near its thermal limit.
I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan >>>> will keep it at full speed under any load.I question that it will in fact throttle.
Like so much 'everybody knows' when you look at it it is in fact
'everyone believes because people selling fans told them so.
'Everybody knows' because they have evidence, not assertions.
The whole point of ARM is its lower power and lack of need for forced
cooling
Everyone's been thermally limited for maybe 15 years, it's just that Arm
cores have traditionally targeted a lower thermal envelope in devices
where
forced air cooling isn't an option. The way this works is that CPUs work >> until they hit their thermal envelope and then throttle. No popular
application processor for maybe a couple of decades has been able to
power
all the silicon at once to max performance and stay within the thermal
budget.
I think this thread is lacking precise, clear language, and people are
making false comparisons. Talking about ventilated cases is confusing, I don't know what a thermal budget is.
There are four points:
1) Passive cases, where the case is a heat sink, are enough to keep a
rPi4 below throttle temperatures, under any load, assuming ambient less
than 35C.
2) With no heatsink at all the rPi4 will throttle under compute
intensive workloads.
3) The rPi4 can perform useful day-to-day tasks without any heatsync,
passive or forced, without throttling. I ran Motioneye, cctv, on mine
for a couple of years before buying a case.
4) Most of us don't use the rPi4 for continuous compute intensive tasks.
There, that should make everyone happy :-)
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